The Unknown of Secrets of Internet Marketing with Chris Burres and Matthew Bertram #457

Oh, we're live on Facebook now. If you're watching us on Facebook, you should turn it up so that you can hear us. Hi, my name is Chris Burris, owner of E-Web Results. My name is Matt Bertram, owner of E-Web Results. Welcome back to another fun-filled edition of our podcast, the SEO podcast, Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing. Look, there it is. Right there behind us. Hey, hello to all you or howdy to all of you YouTubers out there. We really appreciate you. We have another fun-filled edition of our podcast today. What I'd like to do first is read a review. All right. And there were a lot of reviews. Of course, all of the reviews were five stars. And I sifted through them and I spent some time and I was like, this is the right review. This is the review that captures the entirety of our podcast. And I thought, you think that sounds good? I'm excited to hear this. A lot of work. All right. It's from Intricate Digital. And it says, hello, I hope Chris and Mike see this review. E-Web Results podcast is by far the best podcast on earth. Make sure to check it out. I want to come onto this podcast in July when I'm in Houston. See you soon. I might not enunciate my words. I sometimes forget my own name. Maybe other people do too. Well, punch in the face to you. Intricate Digital. And just to be clear. Yes. A punch in the face is a good thing. Nah. And it's Matt. Okay. It's okay. That was a pretty good setup. That was a, I feel like that was a good setup. Hey, if this is the first time you've listened to the podcast, howdy and welcome to the podcast. We're glad that you're joining us. If you've listened to this podcast before, you're probably here in search of tips and tricks related to search engine optimization, internet marketing, all things digital. And we're here to provide those to you. You might actually be looking for, I

don't know, 20 tips for an awesome web design. Top 10 SEO tips. Five mistakes that could tank your business and how to avoid them. No more tips. No more tips. We're not giving away tips today. We're just going to give away high level concepts. High level concepts. And strategies. That's the most valuable thing that we do. Well, you got to pay for that. Yes. This is a paid podcast. Please revert to our new channel. Send money to PayPal. Mike Bertram. Oh, yeah. If you want to support this podcast, please PayPal us. We're funding this on our own. Sponsors. Sponsored by eWebResults. We do have a couple sponsors. So normally at this point, I would do like a teaser of what article we're going to cover. We don't have an article. We don't have an article. We're just going to... Surprise! What we're going to talk to you about is when you should and when you definitely should not do a PPC campaign. Okay. That sounds of value, right? It's an intricate part of internet marketing. A lot of people love PPC. They think it's the answer. They think like cocaine and internet marketing drugs. Cocaine and PPC. I feel like it's... I keep hearing this in the political realm, right? It's like the economy's got all this drug injections and all this, and I feel like PPC is the same way. It's just like a drug injection. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll get into the drug injection that is called PPC here. It's not like CBD oil that's like helpful and... In a moment. Or C60. Yes. C-E-S-S-60. We're going to get like... We just said all these things and they're like, oh, we're not showing you on Facebook. Google has no idea what they're talking about. So, they're not going to get any place mint. Hey, if you like... We have cool t-shirts. He's wearing... I do. Mike over here. Stop confusing people, Chris. Matt over here. It's fun. And then you realize, well, wait. They might actually forget your name and that's not cool.

So, Matt over here has one of the t-shirts on. And if you go... They're probably zooming in on that t-shirt right now. Yeah. Yeah. If you go to ewebresults.com slash swag, you can get one of these t-shirts. And there's a whole slew of them that you can select from. We have actually pulled down the illegal ones. Illegal ones? This podcast is definitely done. We might have left one or two of the illegal ones up there. So, go check it out. ewebresults.com slash swag. Maybe people are going to look because you said illegal. Look at that. Look at that. Illegal ones. Is that marketing or what? All right. So, we were kind of debating about the article to talk about. What should we talk about? You know, we searched search engine journal. We searched search engine land. And it's just nothing really ticked. And we've decided to start our own news station. Yes. Yes. And we're announcing that later. Later. We're not doing that now. That's not happening now. So, we wanted to go into like the do's and don'ts. It's like when do you do a PPC campaign because it's not a panacea of solutions, right? And there's things that doing a PPC campaign, it is like a drug in the sense that when you stop it, it hurts. Right? I'm not speaking from personal experience here. I just want to make that clear. So, there's like PPC withdrawal? How to deal with PPC withdrawal? That's our next article. PPC drug withdrawal. So, we want to dig into real deep. And obviously, this comes in the context of a couple of things. One of them is website or landing page, right? That's potentially part of the answer. And the other one is SEO. So, a lot of people say, oh, you should do PPC first and then do SEO or you should do SEO first and then PPC. And it's not as simple as one or the other first. It actually, like so many things in internet marketing, it depends, right? No, I have an

answer. Matt has an answer. So, Matt, when should we do PPC? Let me throw this out there. Do you want to do do or don't do PPC first? Don't. Okay, when should you not do PPC? Okay, you're asking me a confusing question. I just don't understand. Do you want to first talk about when we shouldn't do PPC or when we should do PPC? I'll just tell you what I think. All right. Go. I can handle this. It's like when you ask a political candidate something because I was watching the Democrats. They don't even answer. They're like, okay, I'm going to say what I want to say now. It's now my time to speak about what I want to speak about. Okay, so a lot of people come to us, ask PPC, they need leads right now, these sort of things. Okay, so what I would say is the methodology that I've came up with over hundreds, maybe thousands of different campaigns is that I like to, I'll give you a three-step method. Okay, you need a good website or a high converting landing page, then you need to do SEO, and then you need to do PPC after that. Okay, SEO needs to be part of your core advertising budget. It's like building a house versus like renting. I mean, if that's a good analogy for anybody out there. But what I can tell you is the only reason, in my opinion, that you might want to do ads first, you can do them in tandem. I think that there's a lot of benefits to that if you have budget. But if you don't have budget, the only reason I would probably do them first is if all the keywords that you're going after have a very high keyword difficulty ranking in something like SEMrush. Right. Right? So anything that's, you know, 70s, 80s is going to take a while. Right. Okay? Or there's no demand. Like I know I've used this in past podcasts, a hamster wheel, a giant hamster wheel for cats. Right.

Right? There's no demand if you search. Nobody's searching for that. No one's searching for that. So you have to create that demand. Just a couple of really smart cats. Potentially that want to work out, that are stuck in a house all day. So essentially, SEO is your core budget. PPCs, if you want to generate the demand. So Google harvests demand. You know, search engines harvest demand. Facebook, social media generate demand. And so that's how you want to look at it. And if there's demand for your product, I would always recommend SEO because you'll get a higher return on your investment over time if you do it properly or you hire the right person to do it. So return on investment is one of the key things that is the consideration here. So one of the challenges with pay-per-click is, yes, you can put together a masterful campaign. That campaign could be going to an amazing landing page, assuming we built it for you, both the campaign and the landing page. And it's generating a lot of value. And if you decide that you want to turn that budget off, it all stops, right? So literally when you stop spending on PPC, the phone stops ringing. And when you're doing an SEO campaign, this is a long, cultivated effort to get you to those first positions. Really, you want to be top three, right? That's the main goal. You want to be top three because that's double-digit return, typically based on some studies out there for that keyword term, that search volume. You're just now in double digits if you're in the top three. Yeah, so you want to get to those top three. And, yes, it's very true that if you stop kind of doing the ongoing SEO processes that you need to do, if you stop doing those, then what happens is you'll slowly fade out. And that fade is actually totally dependent on what other people are doing because, remember, this is a race. This is not like, oh, I put my stake

in first position and I'll be here forever. This is a situation where if the competition is doing smart, good things in terms of link building and on-page optimization and additional content creation and siloing, if they're doing those things, you're eventually going to fall by the wayside because it's not just maybe you did it really good, but there's a time component to it. What have you done for Google lately or Google's content lately? So you've got to keep making those progress. But that still takes a time. When I came in here, Matt was recording a little bit of a video and he was talking about one of our clients. I think it was a 90-day promise to get them to the first position in Google for Tempe bankruptcy. I think that was it. And I'm going to tell the story because I have the camera right now. And so he actually got them there, I think, day 93, right? So they were a very happy client and they were actually planning on continuing with us and doing other keywords and going down that path. But they realized we got them so busy, their phone was ringing so much that they weren't actually ready to proceed to the other little disciplines inside of an attorney law firm. So we were looking at that particular website. It was about a month ago. That was over a year ago. Yeah. And over a year ago was the end of that 32 days ended. And they were in position three, I think it was, three or four. And it was Yahoo, like a couple of places. Thumbtack, and then it was Yelp, and then it was like a Justa or something like that, which is like a Web 2.0 for lawyers. And then they were in the fourth position. Yeah. And so, you know, so that effort was kind of an asset that was built that stays in place. An asset, right? A real asset, absolutely. I mean, think if they had spent that money that they spent with us

and us getting them into that position just on pay-per-click, as soon as they turned it off a year ago, those phone calls would have stopped. But, you know, really how I'm starting to look at a lot of things that we're doing is building online assets, building online infrastructure. It's kind of like building a house or a building or a city, okay, like online, right? And those assets and your website based on how much traffic you're getting based on paid terms is an asset that you can sell, okay? I remember, I don't know what video game it was, some kid bought an asteroid for like a million dollars cash, okay? Okay. And it was in Yahoo. And then three years later, he sold it for like $3 million or $5 million or some crazy number, like X the number. And what he did is he took the asteroid, put a resort on it, and he put a casino on it. And the revenue that it was generating online was X. And I know that that takes it to another extreme. That was inside of a game. But it was inside of a game, and people paid real money for it. Well, you know, cyberspace, there's a lot of infrastructure, and these websites that people are building are worth money. Yeah. And, you know, if you build it with SEO and you build it the right way and you're not renting stuff and you're not taking shortcuts, it stays there. It's fixed. Now, it gets weathered, you know, and it'll get knocked down. Time passes. And, you know, there's maintenance with all websites, people. Like, it doesn't, it's not fixed in one place. It's not stacked. People are like, you do SEO one time. Well, there's a certain amount of SEO, but also that website breaks. There's degradation. There's a lot of different things you need to do. You need to add content, pages. There's different keywords you want to go after. You've been in the business as long as we have. There are actually HTML fundamental

changes that you have to make a document. Oh, yeah. There's CSS. There's WordPress updates because it's all open source. There's a lot going on. So, it's like any kind of car or house. You have to maintain the website. Yep. But you're really building infrastructure online. I think that's really a good way to say it. To support your business. Right. Or you're renting it. Right. You can rent it. Yeah, we get clients regularly from, I don't know, I think one of the places from web.com where they actually don't own their property. Is web.com one of those? Yeah. I think, yeah. There's a couple of new players out there that own the websites, that rent it to their clients. And when they come over to us, there's quite a, like, cost. There's a leap. Right. There's a cost to exit that company because they own everything that you have. Yeah. And so, it's kind of tough to make that transition. I forget what it is. Like, transition costs. Is that the right word I'm looking for? That's a reason. Yeah. But basically, right. You've got to reinvest in the asset. You've got to reinvest. We've got to rebuild Google Analytics. We've got to, you know, any campaigns that they have, they don't get them. So, you've got to rebuild them. So, even AdWords, that data is what you want to take with you. Yeah. Right. What you've learned. Google makes you pay for it now. So, it's super, super important to own your own data, own your own website, own your own assets. And so, you want to make sure to do those things. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's one of the differences. So, we kind of equated the PPC kind of to a drug where, again, if you turn it off, then you're feeling the pain. And SEO is associated with the asset that you can actually hold. So, I think that's really good. What do you think, one of the notes that I kind of put down in terms of real value from PPC is remarketing.

Oh, yeah. Talk a little, like, so, that's a no-brainer, but there's some requirements, some restrictions. Talk to us a little bit about that. You know, there's restrictions on every platform. They constantly change. Basically, it's based on privacy. They don't want you, like, remarketing to one person. Just as an example, because some people might, like, well, that doesn't even make sense. Because if you're working with a DWI attorney, we are here in Houston, remarketing with DWI attorneys, you can't do it. Anymore. Anymore. We used to crush it. Yeah. Because we would blow them up, like, 20 times a day. Yeah. Right? In a three-day period. Because we knew that that's the buying cycle. Right. Right? So, we had to change our strategy. And the logic is, just to kind of understand where they're coming from, if you sat down, I don't know, say, at your dad's computer, and you know how marketing works, and you're just kind of surfing, and there are DWI attorney ads everywhere on your dad's computer, you might know some information about your dad that maybe your dad didn't want to. This could apply to your teacher or whoever's computer you're sitting down at. See, the analogy I was using, I would be like, Chris, I'm watching you. And then, like, you follow them around, or, you know, we've actually seen it work, that actually work with geofencing, where you target an IP address. Right. And you're basically like, you know, oil and gas company plus eWeb results, we love you. Yeah. Right? Or let's set up a call, or something like that. And you hit everybody with it. But if you were targeting one person and following them around, that's a little creepy, and Google wants to walk up to that creepy line. If you've seen the documentary, wink, wink, wink, everybody on Netflix. But they don't want to cross it. Trying hard not to cross it. Yeah. So basically, but I mean, they'll just sell it all to the government, so it's okay. But the thing is, the thing is,

you want to, well, so you've got to have, like, 100-something people. Yep. To create that audience. That anonymity. And I like to bring people in through SEO, okay? And then I like to chase them, right? Bring back the window shoppers, spend in, say, 10%, 15% of their PPC budget. So when people come to me, I'm like, hey, what's your PPC budget? You know, what's your return on investment? What's your SEO? So if we can see that data, typically SEO produces a greater return, or it could. So let's dump the money into that, and then let's cut down, and let's hit people with remarketing. And then later on, if you want to go into new markets, or if you want SEO AdWords, like, you want to rank for certain words, you can run ad traffic to that word, and it'll help you with the rankings, because it'll give Google some data and make some decisions. So there's ways to use AdWords. It's all like a tool in your tool belt, but the tools that I would have as your go-to of your standard marketing is your website is your 24-7 salesperson. It's the billboard outside your company. That's got to look good. It's got to look legit. It's got to represent your brand. It's got to convert. Once you've got a good converting website, landing page, placeholder, whatever, then you want to start getting visibility to that, and I believe your core marketing budget before radio, before paper, print, before billboards, before social media. Print, what is that? You know, people do that, and it does work for certain segments and certain markets. Everything's a tool, and you've just got to figure it out. I would just say your core budget should be SEO, in my opinion. And I think that there's a shift with CMOs and marketing managers that that, you know, is now a line item before it was something that you had to, like, convince them that they needed. But you can track from where you're placed and go. I have one client

that sells two products, and based on where they're ranking, we can track what the new revenue is that they've generated. And I'm trying to get a value on what these keywords are to them per month, right? And then, you know, that would be that industry that I could take across the U.S. But also for them, it justifies our cost to say, you know, we keep you in this position. It produces this much revenue. And that's what everybody's looking for in marketing. They're looking for, I want a direct correlation to what I'm spending that you're going to give me. And I actually have one of our programmers building out this little math problem based on a study that I think is going to give an estimate. There's all kinds of just estimated tools. Estimation. Estimation. There we go. Tools out there. I'll tell you, Rand Fishkin, Moz, just came out and said, ah, the Moz, like, you know, RAID system. It's not as accurate as I thought. But you say, after, like, 10-something plus years, he comes out and says it. It's good that he said it. There's been a big debate online of should he have said it, not said it, whatever. People are like, hey, he came out with it. When did he know that it didn't work? So when is he coming out? Why is he coming out now? Blah, blah, blah. All that sort of thing. Kind of interesting. You know, same thing with SEMrush, right? We use that tool. They've asked to be a vendor to promote or sell that in the past. But here's the thing. You know, we are looking at your other business. Yep. And we're seeing. Actual data, right? Actual data, right? And we've seen this with clients and we've seen this. But we're looking at now data. It's a forward indicator. We're actually on the phone with them. We have a train with them next week on exactly how they're pulling that data because it's not completely accurate. I believe you've got to use multiple tools

and triangulate the data. But we're seeing 25 to 50 percent. Delta. Delta from what's in true Google Analytics to SEMrush. Yep. Now, you can connect SEMrush to that and you can track keywords and it's more accurate. Right. But, you know, if you're just throwing in a website that they haven't spidered, right? Yeah. We're seeing deltas that are kind of forward. 50 percent is pretty significant. I mean, yeah, forward indicators, you know, how they're coming up with that is their little formula. Yeah. And really, you're just doing the best you can with the data. Well, that's why I use like three or four different tools to kind of triangulate it, right? Even when you're looking at like link building and that sort of thing, you've got to kind of triangulate it. You can't go off of, for example, Moz ratings only. Only, yeah. So, you've got to use multiple factors and that's the thing is, you know, I looked at Moz, but I was looking at all these different factors, you know, but it ultimately goes back to what is Google trying to do? Trying to deliver the best search results to answer the question for their visitor. Yeah. And if you are working towards that end, you're doing the right thing. You never have to worry. Yep. Yeah. Google's going to look favorably upon you. Yeah. So, anything else to kind of wrap up this podcast on PPC? I didn't know we were done. What's the agenda? Well, the agenda is we'll talk about PPC and then we'll wrap it up. Oh, okay. Well, I guess we're done. What are we talking about next? We're going to do mini podcasts. Anything else to kind of throw in about PPC? You know, we talk about the value of remarketing. I wouldn't do PPC if you don't have a product over, say, 500 bucks. Oh, if it's too inexpensive. Yeah. If it's too inexpensive, if you got like a $3 item or... Now, one potential caveat to that would be if you know the lifetime value of

a customer. So, if it's a one-time... Right? So, it's not... If you have reoccurring revenue. Yeah. If you've got reoccurring revenue off of it and you're at 500 bucks, then... So, you could spend something that sells for 10 bucks, but if you know that all those customers are going to buy 50 times, then it's, you know, that... Yeah. No, there's kind of a rule of thumb, right? And there are certain targets that you want to try to hit. And these are generalities. There's going to be outliers. Yeah. But I would say, you know, if you're selling a low-ticket item or you're selling like beads... Yep. ...or sharing hair braids or you're selling something that's not reoccurring, that you're not on auto shipment or whatever, you want to make sure what you're spending, you're getting that kind of return on. Yep. And you want to really quickly, if you can't get to it, get to ROI. So, one of the things that we've actually started doing, Chris, is in the profit plan, we have some questions we ask. So, by the way, the profit plan is our second step in the process. So, really, if you want to kind of check if we're the right people, really, it's about dating. The profit plan is about dating and before getting married. So, you fill out a form. It's the dating plan. It's the website, eWebResults.com, and you fill out a form for a free website analysis. There's a vacuum cleaner back there. You get to fill out a form for a free website analysis. And then once you go through that, we deliver a lot of value. Actually, a lot of our reviews are related to the value that they're getting out of that first initial call, and that goes into the profit plan. Yeah. So, it's like, hey, call us. We'll give you some free time with the Internet Marketing Specialist. If you find there's value and you want to dig deeper into the data, we schedule a two-hour consulting session where we dive into that

data. We've made that more structured of different things that we're looking for, different questions to ask. If we get to a place that we need some information that you don't know, before we can give you a quote on the scope of work, we might need to do a little bit of a workshop to figure out the LTV, the right strategy, customer journey, target personas. There are certain things that we might need, right? The lifetime value of the customer, whatever it is, what are you making? What are your conversion rates? We want to help you from a business standpoint, maybe dig into that a little bit to understand your business because ultimately, I think what I'm seeing is most people are coming to us and go, how much do I have to pay you to run my business? Yep. That's really the real question that people are asking. And, you know, we're helping a lot of people succeed, okay? But also, too, we're going to need to get in a little better alignment on what the expectations are and then, you know, what you're trying to achieve, right? Are you trying to build a $500,000 business? Are you trying to build a $50 million business? What does your budget look like? What does your spend look like? You know, what are the things that we need to do? What are the things you need to do? How do we need to do that? But also, you know, if you're calling real quick because we get a lot of calls through SEO and they're just price shopping. Yep. Right? Well, it's like, hey, if you're a legitimate business and you want us to give you a quote on what you want, like, we're not selling something standardized and something for somebody won't work for somebody else. So you heard, hey, Facebook ads work. I need Facebook ads. Maybe you do. Maybe you don't. Well, why? What geographic is your market? Who are you targeting? What's the product? Like, there's so many different factors that go into it.

And so, yeah, we like to take time, understand it. And we're really to the point that we're not going to take on a client that's not going to succeed. So we want to vet that a little bit better. And we'll definitely give you the strategy, help you build it out, and really fill in some gaps for you. But we've got to have all those gaps before we can give you a proposal. Happy to give a range, what most people pay for certain industries, local, regional, national. But, yeah, I think it's just really important to do that work on the front end. It's the measure twice, cut once, right, instead of just jumping into it, flying into it, getting it going. Try that, try this. Try this, you know, spaghetti on the wall kind of syndrome. I think people are getting a lot more, they've done that, and they're like, hey, let's slow it down and get it right. Let's get a strategy, do it the right way. So, yeah. Excellent. Well, I think that was a great close to the podcast. If you like this podcast, we do want to ask you to do something really simple for us. If you're a YouTuber, make sure you subscribe and follow. If you're any of the others, make sure you shiko. We didn't do shiko today, did we? Shikow. Share, like, and follow. Boom. Make sure you share, like, and follow our podcast. We really appreciate you. Oh, you know what you should do? If you're listening to our podcast, and I know we've been a little inconsistent, we're trying to get a little more consistent. We've been, you know, everybody's been on vacation. We've had a lot of work. We've got people having babies. We're babies. Without our permission. Yeah, there's been a lot of stuff going on here, but you want to make sure that you auto-download our podcast, right? So, when new episodes arrive, auto-download it so you know. And also, check out our old podcasts, right? Yeah. So, like, if you're loving our

podcast, go on a little bit of a binge. We're giving away great data on all these podcasts. There's 450-something episodes. So, a lot of this stuff is relevant. Now, there's certain, you know, Google algorithm changes. We need to kind of talk about that. Yeah. Maybe we'll do another podcast here real quick to talk about that if you have time. Yeah. I think that's good. So, let's wrap this up. If you are looking to grow your business with the largest, simplest marketing tool on the planet. SEO. The internet. Call AWebResults for increased profit in your business. Google. I think it's just Google. They don't call Google. They call us. No. I think the largest tool on, I think it's Google. Oh, okay. Google. Right? I mean, it could be the internet. Just Google is processing the information of the internet. Find the internet. The internet. Find the wide web. Call us. Do you agree with this? That they should call us for increased revenue in their business? 713-592-6724. Give us a call. Don't call us. Don't call us. Don't call us? Don't call us. Please don't. We're not taking on any of your clients. I'm not. Don't call us. Please remember we're filmed live here at 5999 West 34th Street. You can apply to work with us, but we're not taking on any of your clients. We were filmed here at 13105 Northwest Freeway. You know the address? Houston, Texas, 77040. I do know the address. Yeah. Because we see it on the building that's outside. By the way, I'm serious. I don't want to take on any new clients, but if you have an interesting business, we're looking at getting involved in some businesses. Okay? Yeah. So if you have a good business idea and you're potentially looking for a partner that you have some assets and some value, we do have a PE firm that will inject half a million, million dollars into a good idea. Okay? With excellent marketing. With excellent marketing that we would provide. Everyone else, we're going to probably go

through a pretty hard vetting process. And so just so you know, we do have referral partners that we're going to be sending business to. And we're looking for- So that doesn't really make sense for us. So that doesn't make sense for us. So if you're listening, I know there's a lot of agencies out there that listen and we do some consulting for. We're going to come up with a certification process that you can be an eWeb certified vendor and we'll pass you business. We have two right now we've sent multiple referrals to that they've closed. And so just so you know, like there's kind of a certain type of business or businesses we're looking for. So if you do send us, we'll put you in someone's good hands. You know, but we're looking to get involved in some businesses a little more actively. Yeah. So just FYI, that's coming down the pike. By the way, punch in the face, we actually had some podcast listeners join us at our grand opening. We didn't talk about that. Yeah. So the grand opening was awesome. It was about 150, 175 people at the event. We had a live video stream with UpSocial Live, long time podcast listeners may remember I was doing that. So Nolan was back. That was pretty awesome. We had a viewer on a panel actually at the event and it was just a great time. Punch in the face to Brian and Robin for showing up. That was really cool. Ben Baker. And then Ben Baker also. Blew in. People flying into town for our grand opening. We really appreciate that. It was really exciting. You can get a transcript and video. I'm trying to wrap up the pod. I keep trying. Just go. You can get a transcript video and audio of this podcast by going to our website ewebresults.com. We don't have transcript. It may not be a transcript. But if you want a transcript, just email Chris and he will transcribe it himself for you on any podcast. He's available

24-7. Call him anytime. He gave the number out. Hey, thank you guys for tuning in. And you guys have made us the one of the most popular internet marketing podcasts on iTunes. If not the most. Probably the most. We really appreciate you. Thanks for tuning in. Until the next podcast, my name is Chris Burris. My name is Matt Burris. Bye-bye for now.