Copywriting in the Age of AI with Nick Usborne Ep. 610

Welcome back to another fun-filled episode of the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing. I have a great guest for you today and a topic that I think everybody would be interested in. This podcast is going to be called the Copywriting in the Age of AI, Copywriting in the Age of AI with Nick Osborne. He's been copywriting for, you know, he said 15 plus years before the internet for direct response. You know, definitely, I'm a student of Dan Kennedy and, you know, ClickFunnels and everything that's going on there and AI has certainly changed the game. I would say even with the announcement, was it yesterday or the day before yesterday, of Apple integrating in at the core OS level chat GBT, okay? And so Siri is going to be very smart and is going to be listening to everything we say and, you know, it's going to be a very interesting world. When I watch even the, you know, interviews and podcasts and stuff that I was to from like ex-Google employees and people that are involved in AI, they can't even project out what's happening in two years and certainly large language models and writing content has been at the forefront and it's something that, Nick, we were talking about. Welcome Nick. So welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here. Yeah, no, I, I'm, I'm really excited. You know, your, your, even your course, future-proof copywriting, I think is like really right at the forefront of, of what's happening because we were talking about, pre-show how, the AI checkers, right. And, and we have a number of enterprise clients that are saying, Hey, wait, no AI content. Don't submit AI content. Right. You had, talking with some freelancers that are submitting content that are writing the content or, or, or working with a writing shop and you know, it's definitely writers and maybe AI is used to write the outline, but it's being written by humans and the AI checkers are saying, no, this is AI. Even

stuff that I've written and published and I just check it and I know I wrote it, you know, portions of it are saying, Hey, this looks like AI. So, you know, Google's having a really hard challenge with it. I think they threw up their hands a while back and said, Hey, if it's good quality content, we're okay with it. Right. Right. And so I would love to hear kind of what you're seeing on the bleeding edge with, with how copywriting's being impacted. Cause I would even tell you, you could say, Hey, write a, write whatever, write this ad in the style of Dan Kennedy and it'll do it. You know what I mean? And so there's, there's some, some challenges with it. Really interesting to kind of hear your viewpoint on a lot of this stuff. So yeah, I'm, I'm like a long time copywriter and I teach and train a lot of writers, freelancers and in-house teams and, and I'm kind of seeing both extremes. Some people are saying, no, I'm not going to touch it. I don't trust it. It's useless. It's just a word guesser, you know, these tools they can't write. So that's one end. The other end, people are like all in and sometimes being over-reliant on AI. Because AI, like, like people is, is imperfect. And so you'll see bias there, or you'll see the hallucinations or just getting stuff wrong. I think that the smartest group I see are the people in between who recognize that there's enormous, not just productivity benefits, but the way I use these models, I'm really attempting to become a better writer by using them. And I don't use it. I don't look at these models, something like GPT-4.0 as simply a software tool. I actually have a more of a mindset of collaborating with these models. Yes. So I kind of, I kind of treat it with a weird respect as a, as a co-intelligence. It's not intelligent the way a human is, but there, there is, you know, I don't say,

hey, write me tweets or write me an article on XYZ. I will get into conversation with these models and I'll say, okay, what do you think are interesting topics for this audience in this kind of topic area? Give me some titles. And I'll say, hey, number three, that looks interesting. Give me an outline. All right, this is looking great. Let's write, like, give me a first draft and then I'll do something like, and this I think is what a lot of people don't do, is I'll pause and I'll say, hey, do you think there's anything we're missing here or anything I'm missing here? And it's at that point that you're actually collaborating rather than instructing. It's no longer, it's a software tool. It's a co-work. I say, what do you think I'm missing? And like, I'm getting into the habit of doing that more and more because I get some really great feedback of like, wow, I would not have thought of that, or I wouldn't have thought of it that way. So like, I'll, I'll half the time say please, um, when, when I'm talking to it, but, but I think it's really healthy to, to get into conversation with it. But I also like, like even like a learning tool, if you, if you don't know, like, I think it's super helpful if you have a good foundation of what you're trying to do, right? Like if you're trying to move into a vertical that you don't understand at all, you should treat it as like a learning tool to learn more about that segment, right? Like, so if you don't understand target audience, um, customer personas, um, you know, the customer journey, like, you know, what channel you're, you're, you're advertising, you need some background information to, to work with the prompts to, to get the right answer. You can't just say, give me the right answer. And what you're saying is you're, you're, you're building the data set and you're building it contextually to, to understand what you're asking for, to

get the prompt right, based on the past information to, to get the right answer. And so, yeah. I mean, for sure, like when people claim that they get disappointing output, I kind of probe and ask them about their, their prompting habits or prompting process. And usually the problem is not with a modelist, but the person's prompt. So to your point, I mean, I, I create a lot of detail, like if I want to say, write a blog post, if I wanted to write me a first and second draft of a blog post, I will give it a lot of information. I will give it the, the reader persona or avatar, I'll say, this is who we're writing to. This is who you are. Please. This is your role. You are an expert in ABC. And then I'll say, look, here's specifically what I want you to do. And here's some examples. Like say, if I wanted to write a sequence of three emails, I'll say, look, here, here's 20 emails we've done before that proved to be really successful. So learn from that. So I might be pasting in, you know, a thousand words of instruction, or I might do it a step at a time. But yeah, I'm giving it a lot of information to work with. So, so I think that whole thing, and the other thing that, that I do a lot and that I teach a lot is to deliberately add, add in where AI tends to be a little weak, which is on the emotion side, the emotional intelligence. So a lot of what I'm teaching and in my course that you referenced, like I'm teaching artificial intelligence plus emotional intelligence, because emotional intelligence is like, hey, these models are amazing. They demonstrate remarkable, you know, what they do, I think is absolutely remarkable. But they, they've never fallen in love. They've never eaten ice cream. They've never walked on the beach and felt the sand between their toes. So that experiential emotional side of being human is something that

they've read about, but they've never felt firsthand. So that's something what I try, I try to do is to, to weave in kind of emotional intelligence and also prompt them to be more emotional, which sometimes they get, and sometimes they don't. Yeah, no, you can say, write this more conversationally. Like there's, there's definitely different things that, that you can say. And also I would tell the audience that I have tested out very, very, very detailed prompt sets versus more, maybe shallow prompt sets. And the amount of difference I'm getting is, is not very high. So I think that there's some, some background research that people can do to understand kind of what the prompting categories are and how it's going to write. Because, you know, I think that, well, I don't know, is it Mark Twain or something that said, Hey, I would write you a letter or if I had more time, I would write you a shorter letter or something along those lines. So it's very precise. Like I, I like how it gets to the point and it's like, Hey, say this better, say this more professional, say, say this in a way. And like, you know, I'm seeing a lot of people that don't know maybe the English language is great to, to, to, to use that as, as help. Like how do I, how do I say this more appropriately? You know, but I, I think your point on the, the human emotion, the human experiences, that's what I think you have to do because AI is giving like the data set of the baseline of whatever it knows and you need to share that, that real world experience. So Google says eat expertise, authority, trust, and they added the experience component and that experience component is your personal experience with whatever that you can insert in into whatever you're collaborating right with, with, with AI and really offer something above and beyond or expert level or experiential knowledge in, in a specific area. And I think that that's, what's

really important. I think that like you said, like the productivity tool, this just makes people better at what they already know how to do. Yeah. And certainly if you don't know something, you can shortcut, um, uh, uh, learning by using it as a learning tool by asking the right prompts and, and I, I think there's going to be a lot of training applications, um, for AI, right? For sure. And there is, I mean, to, to a point you're touching on a little while ago, it's, I will, I kind of do this kind of iterative prompting process. So I might say I was a while back, I was writing a sales page and it was about networking and conferences and things like that. And I had GPD 4.0 do a first draft and I said, Hey, let's just start with like a, like a story, an anecdote, which you'll often see in a sales page. And it did. And it made up this story. And when I read the story, I was like, huh, because it actually reminded me of an experience I had at a conference of where I saw someone walking towards me and I couldn't remember their name and it was like really embarrassing. So what, what was happening there is it prompted me to remember something. And then I rewrote the opening with my real personal experience. And when you do that, there is a, there's a kind of authenticity of, of when you share your own experience, there's an authenticity that it's very, very hard for AI to replicate. So I'm going back and forward and in fact, it was the model that prompted me to think of my own experience, which I then added into the copy, which made it better. So it really is this back and forth. And I think also that's really important in that it helps differentiate your output. So I see services online now where it says, Hey, come to us and we'll create your, your content at scale. You know, here's your prompt library,

here's your template library. And I'm saying guys, if you use the same models with the same prompt library and the same template for your emails or blog posts, if everyone is using the. So, Nick, I want to take it back to talking about your background on, on how you got into this. So I think it's really exciting what's going on with, with, with all the AI, but I think really understanding the history of copyright and kind of where it is and then like looking forward is important. So can you just, for the audience's benefit and my benefit, I, I, I know. But you, but I would love to kind of hear the story of like how you got into copywriting and like what you've seen it do, because I mean, I think it just, it moves the needle. And like Dan Kennedy, just, I mean, he, he, he was just brilliant. And I've read so many of his books and he started actually doing the target, like a book for every target persona. Right. Like so a lot of the same stuff. And I would say he's where I really cut my. So share, share with me a little bit about your background, how you got into it and some of the clients you've worked with and all, you know, stuff like that. Oh, sure. OK, so I, I got into it in 1979, so please don't do the math. And I've been a copywriter ever since. That's however, my living. And I worked as a trainee copywriter in an ad agency in central London, UK. And it was the kind of the tail end of Mad Men, I guess. It was it was a time when the creative department was king or queen in the creative department in that agency. I kind of felt I was at home as a copywriter. And I spent many years doing print advertising at that agency. Then I left there and was a co-founder of a direct response agency with three other people. And I was doing that

for a number of years. Then I moved to Canada. I was creative director of an ad agency in Toronto. I've worked with Apple. I've worked with The New York Times, with Yahoo, with Microsoft. I've worked with a lot of large companies and medium sized companies as a writer. And then in 1995, I created my first website, which was fairly early because I just loved it. This this thing like this Internet thing. And back then, the Internet, it wasn't really a commercial space much. Back in 1995, it was more this kind of democratization of media. It was like this amazing place where anybody could be a publisher and no gatekeepers. It was gorgeous. And there was this kind of dream. And I was straight into it. And by 1997, I'd given up any kind of direct response, physical, like direct mail. I was 100 percent online by 1997. And again, conferences and just just loving it because it was such a dramatic time. And then, you know, in the early 2000s, I remember, you know, Bob, we got got into some social media stuff. And then, of course, we things changed. It's you know, we've got these very large companies taking control, much more control. And all of a sudden it was, you know, Google and Amazon and Microsoft and Facebook and just these massive companies kind of becoming the new gatekeepers. So that early dream kind of disappeared a bit. And I guess for artificial intelligence, I mean, I'm always interested in what's new. I started getting into that about five years ago. I had a small agency where we would do it working with chatbots for companies. And some of that was just like conversational design, if this, then that. But we were also using some rudimentary AI. We were using Watson. And that was like made my brain hurt. It was like it wasn't a conversational interface like we have now. It was really complicated doing AI back then. And then along comes in November of, what was it, 2022, GPT 3.5. And

that just blew me away. It's like I tried it like within a week. And it's like it's like 20 years had passed in the course of a weekend. It was just this unbelievable thing. And I guess we take it for granted now. But that first week, that first few tries with chat AI just blew my mind. So I've been really, really interested in that. But as a copywriter, and you talk about Dan Kennedy and the kind of other copywriting grades, they'll all tell you that the most important thing in persuasive writing is emotion. You've got to connect with people emotionally. Emotion is the trigger that drives engagement and drives conversion. And as I was getting into AI as a productivity and as a writing tool, I thought this is insanely useful and interesting and fascinating. But it's kind of weak on human emotion, which is such an important part in communication. So that's where I really got into my message of look, AI, yes, go all in. You have to go all in as a writer, as a freelancer. But don't forget emotional intelligence. Don't forget that emotional side because that's where you as a human are still way superior to these AI models. So basically, you watch for the story and it's kind of a long story. But that's how I got here. No, I think that that was like a hugely key piece, right? Is AI or AI? Well, I think after they get a big enough data set, right, like they they will figure out the emotion. I mean, the stories that they tell are incredible, right? But I mean, currently where it is right now, you have to trigger that emotion. That that real world experience, as we've been talking about, is is so critical to the human experience and the finding those pain points, right? Like it's like pain and greed or like what are the those are like kind of two of the two of the main factors that drive people to to make decisions. And so knowing that

when you're writing copywriting and leveraging AI, that that's a really critical piece walking into it. I can tell you it's it's kind of funny when it when Chachi came out, you know, everybody was like hearing about it. You know, I was on panels and people were like talking about it, but like what it was, but no one was really using it but me. And I was early on, which, you know, I'm already outed for this. So, you know, so I think it's OK. But I was I was posting like. On my on my wife's on my wife's Facebook, like, you know, you know, we're celebrating this or we're celebrating that, and I would use AI to say, you know, what would be the most you know, what would be the best message to say about this? Right. And then it's like it's taking all the experiences it has and giving the you know, bell curve best answer. Right. So like you're hitting the target right in the center. And then I added, you know, some some personal personalization to it. So so it is mine. And I can tell you, like she was over the moon and then and then about six months later, you know, she was just like, oh, my gosh, like, you know, this just, you know, sending me like hearts and like super, super, you know, and then she figures it out because I had sent her some article because it was like, what industries are going to be, you know, displaced by this? I think that's a real concern. And I think, you know, right. People that use AI. I had a head of copywriting at our company and she was adamantly opposed to using anything. She was like, you know, like, hey, it threatened her job. Like I this is not something I'm interested in doing. Anybody on my team, we're not going to do this. So like in some leadership meetings, there was a little bit of kind of like, OK, so you're like this is a no

go path. Right. And I I kind of after a few conversations were like. This is the like way forward there, like like you're trying to, you know, water's coming down a river very, very fast and you're trying to go up the river. I said, you know, this is just like we have to do this or we're going to get left behind sort of thing. And and and and so, you know, she she had a different direction and, you know, like everybody walks a path for a certain amount of time and then, you know, they they may go their separate ways, they may reconnect. And so so so so we we certainly changed changed the model over the last two years of of what we were doing. And, you know, when we talk about SEO, you know, contents, the engine that that drives SEO. And then there's a lot of kind of signals that you're sending so that the AI on the other side. So you got an AI now talking to AI and there's like degradation of models. And that's why you got to add kind of that human experience. That's why Elon Musk, I think, when he bought Twitter, he's like, let's get rid of all these bots because he can't train a data set on, you know, AI talking to AI because you're getting to a homogeny of of of knowledge. You need to keep feeding it rich data. And and so, you know, I don't know. It's been you're right. It is evolved very, very rapidly. And like we were talking about before, we can't even project out the future. What are your what are your predictions, I guess, on on where you see it heading and going? Because you've you've been walking both of these paths pretty early on. Where do you see it really? I would like like like like you say, you know, the answer is I don't know, but but I got a few guesses. So one of the things that happened in the last few months is

that WPP, which is the world's largest ad agency group that they own, like the top 100 ad agencies in the world, including iconic agencies like Ogilvy, and they are just inking a deal with Google to work with Gemini. And they are basically going to use Gemini across these hundred top agencies to basically handle ideation, campaign ideas, copy images, art direction. So so AI is going into the agency world in a big way. And they're not the only agency group doing this. And I kind of get it because the math of this is irresistible to a company or to an agency or organization. So sometimes I see copywriters like getting confrontational with a company saying, look, if I write copy for you, it's going to be better than what you can do with these models. And the companies say, we agree, but when we use GPT for our equivalent, we're getting content written 100 times faster on one cent in the dollar compared to you. So, yes, you're better. But the math says we shouldn't work with you anymore. So so there is I see that pathway evolving where companies do automate more and more of their, you know, on the agency side and on the company side. But I think there will be a pullback, a pushback. And this is something that we began to touch on earlier, which is what I call the sameness trap. If you use the same models with the same prompts and the same templates, you will get output that looks strikingly similar because, of course, you will be using the same tools to generate the output. And that for a company is the last thing you want. You've probably spent billions of dollars, like generating a particular brand character for your company. The last thing you want is to sound the same. So there'll be this tension. I think companies will be drawn to the math of it. They want to maximize their use of AI. So they're getting maximum output for minimum expense. But at the same time,

they've got to protect their brand. They've got to protect their points of difference. And that's where the human then leans in and says, I can help you with that. Because when you were talking about my origins back in the early days when I was in London and that was like the Mad Men days, creativity was key. It was all about creativity. And like when I'm a huge fan, I work a lot with these models, but I've yet to see any of them write a headline where I think, oh, my goodness, that is incredible. Like they're all workable headlines, but nothing really fantastically creative. So I think human emotion and creativity are the differentiating points. And I think that's where we lean in and keep ourselves relevant as human creative writers. You know, I agree with you on the headlines and certainly when I've taken copywriting courses and the headlines are more important than the rest of the copy because you got to you got to get them in the door, right? You got to get them interested. And I do agree with you that the headlines aren't aren't showstoppers yet. I think what will probably end up happening is a lot of, you know, you've worked with some big banks, like there's a lot of limiting of using the public data. Right. And so I think that they're going to silo a lot of their data. And I hadn't heard this deal about that agencies. I actually know someone that sold into that kind of conglomerate where they're independent, but, you know, they're they have a parent. And I think what probably people are going to do is feed their take the model, you know, silo it like wall it off, feed their own data, all the stuff they've done. And you could do that for a particular brand. Here's everything we've done for that brand. And then generatively predict, you know, where could this go? Right. And I've seen that even individuals like so you take all the stuff you've ever copyright, Nick, and,

and you put it in there and you can make a bot that could answer as you could answer. Right. And, and so what do you think about that? Cause that's where I see it. I think it's happening. So, so the, the third largest agency group, and I forget the name it's based in Paris, France, and they also own about a hundred agencies and they're investing hundreds of millions in their own model and they're doing exactly what you're talking about. They're saying to all the agencies in the group, they say, we want all the data, all the creative, all the results, everything you have in your silos for the last 20 years. And we're going to feed it into our model. So our model is not a public facing model like chat GPT. It is just looking at the creative and their copy and the results and the data from our agency world for 20 years to now. So yeah, to your point that, that is, that is being built right now. So the one, the one thing I'm starting to think about now is you, you did a lot with chatbots, right? And, and I think that, so, so you're, you're, you're also well, well versed in, in that track. What are you seeing? I mean, I, I see chatbots replacing like customer service, replacing sales. I mean, like where the agency is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is I mean, how has that, How do you think that one of the things that you look for is like, how do you pose that question to your trainee board? Do you, do you it in terms of like prevention, strategic competition, and is that what's normally defined this way? Or no, I don't think we that question that is not defined as well because it's, it's looked at in terms of like. Because now remember data is the digital, like your data is the value, right? So then people are maybe

buying agencies to get access to, to all their years and years of copy and client base to build the data sets. I've seen also, I wrote an article a while back, like someone else coined it. It was like the intimacy economy. Okay. So the personalization of AI can understand somebody and communicate and be much more, um, you know, thoughtful than even a human could be in a lot of cases. And so like using it from a therapy standpoint, but also people want personalization. Like, I mean, we were on a call yesterday doing a deck presentation and we were like, here, like we were talking about case studies as like part of our, our, our process. Here's about the company. Here's the cases, whatever. They like cut us off and they're like, what, how is that going to be applied? Like specifically to us, like they were like a dis profile, like a D they were like, we want to know how that affects us directly. They don't even want to see it at it. It was, it was a little bit like, Hey, like this, this is a rhyming. It's not exactly, but it rhymes of what you're trying to do. Um, and they were like, no, how is that going to be applied to our model? And what, what, what are the results going to be? And, and, um, and I, so I thought that was super interesting. And so I think this personalization, this, this intimacy of connection, um, because there's so much information out there, it's almost like information overload. I even have to like take a break so I can think and get my thoughts together because I'm getting hit with, you know, technology 24 seven, um, like going fishing or something like that. I like to get away from the technology. I get, I get cycling each day or kayaking just to get away from it. But, but to the personalization point that, that is coming fast and furious. You, you mentioned the, the, the, the, the Apple thing with,

with Siri being upgraded and having access to GVD for, and things like that. So you imagine now that within that ecosystem on your iPhone, imagine that they want to sell you something. They know you intimately, everything that's on your phone or everything you do, every like they, so every single message. So, so if Apple is selling something, then they, they can, they can change that message person by person. Every single owner can get a slightly different version of that sales pitch based on their, who they are and what they do and how they interact with the world through Siri and through their iPhone. So, so they could well become a time where every time we look at an ad, unless it's print, but every time we look at a digital ad or digital messaging or email, there is an element there that is personalized specifically for me or you as an individual. So this is like, if, when I go back to my direct mail, physical, direct mail, junk mail days, it was the dream of like one-to-one marketing, but you could never do it back then. It was very rudimentary. And we've been getting closer and closer to that idea of one-to-one marketing. And now we are, we're just inches away from that and where every marketing message can be changed according to the recipient and their experiences and their fears and desires and their lifestyle and everything. So there was actually a Google data dump about a month ago that revealed a lot of stuff. And, and I, and I'm on, I've been, I've been really busy and need to do a podcast about that. That'll probably be happening fairly soon. But one of the things also that I am seeing that, that Google's doing and they've come out and said it is all search. Okay. So, so a lot of what we do, you know, rankings for different search terms, there's long tail key phrases, like qualifying for topical authority. There's, there's a lot that kind of goes into the strategy of

it. But also tracking keywords is really important for clients. Okay. And Google came out and said, every search is going to be personalized based on the previous searches of that person. Just like what Apple's doing, where they're going to know us better than we know ourselves. And they're going to write the copy. Um, and, and, and they're doing this with, uh, uh, uh, like it, it's called performance max. So it's basically a, give us a bunch of different taglines, give us a bit of different images, and then the AI will figure out what's working best, but then you layer on that personalization component to it as well. So you're testing it in mass, but then you're testing it for that individual. And I'm starting to see like, even in search results, Hey, oh, that kind of caught my attention, right? Like, okay. You know, that, that's something I might be interested in. Do you think that, do you think that's working well yet? I think that from what I'm seeing is they are spending an absorbent amount of money to add, um, the AI horsepower to the searches. And it's actually more expensive for them to do organic searches, but they're trying to protect market share as, as a, as a search platform because of all the inroads that, that Microsoft ads, um, and being are making, and then being even has like a dedicated team that's like, Hey, let's press this advantage. And so, you know, we're really getting into this battle here. And I mean, even Elon Musk is coming out and saying like, we're going to put things in a fair day cage because there's security issues here, because it's learned, it's just learning, right? Like it's just learning on from everybody and everything. And then it's like, it's going to be the war of the AI is like, whoever has the biggest data center, whoever has the smartest AI is going to, and who knows what they're going to use it for, but it, it's going to be interesting. It's going

to be interesting. That's all I know. And I think, and I think I, I, Hey, I agree. And I think as we go forward, we'll see more and more of this technology, but, but I also see something else, which is there will be a place for say agencies, boutique agencies to say the greatest we have, we have found out in the desert of technology, we have found the best creatives that the human creative directors, the copywriters, the designers, the art directors who still know how to create outstanding advertising. And I think there'll be a market for that. And there'll be almost like a hunger for that is, is that, yes, I think we'll be overwhelmed by the, by artificial intelligence in marketing and communication and sales, but that it'll almost become a kind of must have for some brands to actually go back to the human creative and say, you know, no AI, just be an amazing creative person and come up with some campaign ideas. I think that there will always, I think, be a place for that. Maybe, maybe I'm, maybe I'm being romantic, but actually I think it can give you a, an advantage to, to also tap into that human creativity. Well, I mean, people do business with people they know, like and trust and, and they want to know that the other person on the other side of the table cares and I think putting everything in autopilot with, with AI, I think it's just going to be a lot smaller. I think that, you know, that's why they're talking about universal basic income because, well, there's going to be the people that understand how to use the technology and that have like a firm basis and understanding in, in, in whatever the art is that, that, you know, they're, they're, they're bringing value to the world in, and then you apply it with that and it increases that productivity and then, you know, there's going to, I mean, maybe it's going to make time for a lot more art,

right? Like where a lot of people have, like, I mean, that was what I was told, right? When like email was coming around and like technology was going to help us work less and so that we could experience life more and make our world better. What, what just happened is like, you know, work harder, work faster, you know, the, the cycles, you know no, I agree with you. So we're, we're kind of getting to the point of, of, of wrapping up. I would love to hear any kind of final thoughts you know, what, what you're offering. I think it's super important that people understand how to use AI if they've heard about it, but haven't stepped into it. Certainly like, like, like my past you know director of, of content you know, like it's common and, and I think you should, I think you should embrace it. I mean, you know, my, my, my message to every, every, every freelancer and everyone writing within, within company marketing groups is, is lean into this to the max. I think you're going to, you know, you either ride the wave or you get crushed by it. Right. And I don't think there's really much of an in-between. So yeah, I think you have to lean in and learn it cause it's here. It's a transformational technology to, to, to try to ignore it. It's a bit like the candle maker ignoring Edison's light bulb, you know, ignoring all your light. It's not going to make any difference because that technology transformed the world or the Model T Ford coming out. You know, if you made horse buggies, you may have hated the, the motor car, but it doesn't matter what you think of it. It's coming. And it's the same way. It's the same with AI. You may not like it, but it's coming. So my recommendation is lean into it. But also I think for that point of differentiation, for differentiating yourself and also for differentiating, differentiating on behalf of your clients, lean into the emotional

intelligence side as well, because emotion has always been the most powerful factor in, in marketing communications and engaging and in driving conversions. I love it. Nick, how do people get in touch with you if they want to hear more or get some training and you use and leverage your knowledge and help? Okay. So, so my, my, my website is nickosborne.com. So N I C K U S B O R N E.com. And if you get a nickosborne.com forward slash SEO, I have put together like a landing page. There's a, there's a free download. You can sign up for a newsletter. You can get a discount on my, my course and just poke around the website. I have, I have a blog there and I have tons of hundreds of blog posts on this topic on the site. So yeah, nickosborne.com forward slash SEO. Awesome. Well, Nick, it was a pleasure to have you on. We'll have to maybe check in down the road and see, see how things are changing. I, I, I really liked the kind of visionary forethought kind of look of where things are going. Cause no one knows, like it's an interesting time we live in. So thank you so much, Nick, for coming on. I really appreciate it. Oh, thanks for inviting me. As you can tell, I love talking about this stuff. Interesting times. Interesting times. All right, everyone. Bye bye for now.