The Best SEO Podcast Featuring Special Guests from New York! #466

i was like live i should go live like facebook live well you know so you can go you can go live on um well i i applied for it i applied for the linkedin beta on monday oh they said it'd take three weeks to get back to me though so i posted videos like non-stop for like a month and then i applied i was like because i figured they're only going to look back like 30 days yeah yeah man you're like uh you're like a like some sort of human hacker i don't know like we figured out like the knobs of everything well no that i was i was really i've been trying to figure out so like i'll post two posts so i'll post one post i'll give you an example i'll post two memes and also here's something i found out about linkedin i'm gonna put all this in the paper like gifs don't work on mobile unless you use the mobile gifs yeah so you have to convert it to an mp4 and then post it but what i've been doing is i've been like on friday like tgi friday right tgif so i'll post a picture of a girl and a guy like a like a meme and see which one does better right and then i'll post in the mornings and like during the day during the week at night on the weekends and also i'm looking at the audience right so i'm looking at the audience of like who's seen what so what i've found is there's a lot less people on at night like after seven like everybody's on facebook i think yeah i think everybody's on facebook but the people that are on linkedin are like our target persona right it's a small business owner or big businesses or or big yeah directors there yeah you know the producers that sort of thing but you've got to look at like sales people and recruiters are on during the day yeah but after that so on the weekends

so i started posting on weekends like i did a post on a weekend then i got a bunch of views on it and i was looking at who was looking at it right it's the small it's like owner you know owner or executive officer or president or ceo or whatever so it's really interesting about how people are using it also i've been using different hashtags some i've been using a lot some i've been using different ones so i'll give you an example if you hashtag like agency it won't get a bunch of views but if you hashtag awards or you hashtag recruiting tip or hiring tip it goes viral so so really they're trying to figure out the user intent so like so i have this one really good video that that ivan did on like we build responsive websites we you know all the integrations plugins different platforms adding videos all that sort of thing i haven't pushed that out yet but if i hashtag that anything sales related i don't think it's going to get very much visibility so they want like education first well they i think they want hiring first and then i think they want education and then they want like recognition you know what i mean yeah and and they're looking at like what you're doing on the algorithm like how many likes and like you know how people are like you like your own stuff you know what i mean yeah you should because i don't i don't know if it's weighted less but it's definitely like weighted does that make sense like and so i'll go back i won't like it out of the gate i'll go back and like it later then i'll go back and comment you know we'll respond so there's kind of how how the algorithm kind of works yeah yeah i heard that when you post something it pushes it out to like a certain number of people first like your top engagers and they'll see who responds and if that's that

has good response they'll push your post even further out to the rest of your connections and that's how like facebook personal profile works too i heard yeah well so so i have some posts okay and i start off with just like funny videos and stuff like that i was getting 40 000 like views like i got 100 000 views and basically what i was doing is i was just putting my logo and then like on on the bottom of image and pushing that out and then i was driving them to um you know like like a calendar we set up but a lot of the people were just people that want to learn about internet marketing so now i'm pushing to like our podcast so bestseopodcast.com and um you know now things are are really changing like facebook it works pretty well how you got to do facebook now so you only have 6 000 friends right you max out yeah you have to tag people so when you post on facebook like if if we did a post on facebook or we're doing this live i would tag like my whole team y'all anybody you could because then it shows it in their feeds and then and that's how you get the uh the expansion yeah funny thing about linkedin is so i did a post okay and i don't and it's how the system's built so i did a post and i and like for whatever reason i decided i wanted to delete it okay so i deleted it but people had already liked the post so it continued it continued to go then i deleted the next one but more people liked it so it was going all these different directions so know that if you put it out there on social media if anybody comments on likes i think it creates a new page yeah or something like that and then that has its own life of its own but then i was like thinking okay well if i if i

deleted that does the engine stop right is the the main post the driver yeah it didn't have any effect that post got 500 something views it's like you got to think of the purpose of like social media you know networks right yeah their business model it's all based on engagement right uh-huh even though their profits come from sales right like a lot of times people actually well you're buying attention right people are buying attention right so they they're like you know if you ever uh looked at this concept of demand aggregation where like they stand it's like the concept of companies that stand in the middle of two of they're not supplying arbitrage they're not demanding yeah like zillow eventually they do like they stop well because they build up their yeah once they become audience exactly but and that's why like kevin and i used to go after that market but when we started you know the tech you know sort of the tech app world right yeah because we were and the problem was that we were not only in charge of generating demand we were also in charge of generating supply so when you're working a double-sided market and that it's tough right and you can't survive unless you raise a bunch so you so so how a lot of them get started is they buy the demand on one side yeah grow the market on the other side and then they develop the other market but you're gonna have money you have to play negative for years well no i i mean my last startup i was building uh basically uh for for medical professionals we were we were basically scraping a bunch of different hospital jobs all all around the country it was generating uh on a daily basis because we weren't we weren't we didn't have a strong enough spider to do it you know we we got it up to like every half day or something like that but then we were having to get um clients right

so we were getting clients to join the platform to pay us but then we had to get candidates so we had jobs i got that and then we got about 72 clients but i wasn't getting enough candidates so then i would have to run ads on those jobs to to get enough clients to it and then you know what's a good level of demand right so sometimes i would overspend to deliver over deliver for the client yeah because it's a beginning plot so that you're in this conundrum yeah you have timing is important because if somebody who's supplying the the whatever shows up but there's no demand and vice versa yeah so you're you're juggling a bunch of plates you know yeah and it's honestly why we stopped well you know you if you just operate within the the the pre preset confines and you just compete like so i you know i'm an athlete or whatever like like competing on a high level well instead of creating my own marketplace my own environment all my own you know community let me compete in the area where the people already is there's already a set rules and then you can build an audience out of that and then later on move it but to build it all from scratch you're right you gotta go negative for and if you think about it uh the really good ones i like zillow like as a as a great example yeah it goes back to our typical marketing strategies right particularly in direct response where you have a lead magnet right sure you give something for free in order to generate you know yeah sort of like demand right doing seo like anybody else yeah they're just doing demand generation but think about zillow right before they could get people people's eyes to actually go and check the the listings remember this estimate where you go and actually check the value of a house uh-huh it was a free tool sure like people would go for that well

like glass glass door glass door and exactly in hiring it's the same thing as giving a free book what does yelp do is there any redeemable value of yelp at all i have i don't know i heard yelp messes with the restaurants that go and place on it they're like gangsters like you gotta like give them money or they'll show ads like on on on your profile and they'll hide reviews they recruited at my school i was looking at working for them i'm glad i didn't yeah but uh yeah i don't know yelp and like oh so we we got a review on yelp and this person left us like some crazy review and i like i'm i like pulled all the way back for like 20 years like this person never worked with us and i'm like who is this person i like and and then i can't even reach out to him you know what i mean like so i had to respond like through the platform or whatever yeah but i don't know i feel and then yelp also um a couple other clients that told me this like a review is a review is a review and they're going to decide if it's a good review or not or if it's valuable or not yeah they're not verifying if it's even legit you know what i mean yeah and it's and it's their call you can't even like protest it like so this is something you didn't know so i just got on the marketing committee for better business bureau and i didn't even know this did you know that they have dispute resolution offices and it's like a free service that like if there's a dispute between two businesses they'll like be a facilitator for it isn't that pretty cool yeah i mean and that's a big part of what they do and i didn't know that i go there to check like mostly what people are saying complaints because it gives you like so much insight into like a

product and you're like oh and if you can verify yourself you'll really see what's you know okay but okay but what about amazon if you're buying a product or it depends what platform right but that's what all the platforms do is to reviews so do you weight different platforms differently for reviews for reviews it's it's interesting because on amazon i actually probably don't care much about reviews it's weird but uh because there's too many i think i think it's rankings more important than than what you think rankings on amazon for the amazon basics like you know they they just find something good that's selling okay and then they rip it off and then they sell it for cheaper but it's usually good and that's like i know that's pissing a lot of people off but yeah but that's what they're doing right so they're looking at all the data yeah well no we should get we should get started here um now we get started let's get started but um you know um welcome to this episode of the unknown secrets internet marketing my name is matt bertram this is chris burris for all you can't see we got his bobblehead here um i had uh two gentlemen dropped by the office that we uh linked up at a conference up in new york not too long ago uh kevin andres why don't you all kind of introduce yourself talk about a little bit about your specialties uh and then we can just continue the conversation see where it goes yeah so as matt said my name is kevin i'm primarily a direct response copywriter i've worked with a lot of the big social media influencers with their info products and recently i just you can't drop any names you have ndas out there i'll drop some names so i've worked with tai lopez dan henry mentor box and now i'm starting to transition more into health so i'm working with v shred now they're pretty big on youtube and i have a pharmacy background

so that's kind of more of my thing anyway that resonates with me yeah those are some big names that we got a lot of digital markers you know that listen so it's great to have you here and provide an insight appreciate you stopping by you know andres all right so i own this agency co-owned with actually kevin um as of a year ago and uh the name of the agency three is a studio and we primarily like just do interactive web development for big madison avenue agencies and big brands and um funny enough it's the only thing we've ever done right so you know we figured out a way to to knock on the doors of big brands and say hello we have this thing you know you know can can we can we work with you interesting and um yeah and when you do that it's kind of like you you get you get to see the difference of working with a you know seven figure business versus a nine figure ten you know billion dollar company publicly traded company and there is no difference you know and that's what i think people need to get in their heads you know you know that was one of the things that uh at the conference they talked a lot about is moving up channel and moving significantly up channel right so yeah a lot of digital marketers are working with the small local businesses yes and they're trying to uptick their brand yeah you know and so it's interesting to hear that coming in you already had your target persona of who you wanted to go after and you only grab those right and so i think that a lot of people are going to want to hear about and i mean madison avenue i know maybe there's some geograph geographical aspect to it because you are in brooklyn yeah but but but i don't think that that's it right yeah no it definitely started you definitely nailed it because it started i mean kevin

knows it started by accident really like i was in a coffee shop in brooklyn right and met someone who worked at one of these agencies right and you know he saw what we were doing you know i was sitting down at the time coding something a big project and saw the whole thing right yeah and you know again geography does play a role but you know there's a you could meet someone and then you could also be in front of a u.s marines project with no team and then you have to figure it out there's a big there's there's a big gap right there's the flip side to that so you got to be able to scale that's another thing right like that's the thing a lot i think digital marketing agencies are struggling with of like how to scale their business right and so usually what i've seen at least in search because that's primarily what we do i mean we do web design we're a full service agency but we're known for search there's a lot of other good seo people out there but it's usually one person that knows a bunch of stuff right ton of clients and maybe some admins that are helping them but there's not a really good structure so they're like this guy's a genius if i can just get this guy to work on my stuff like he's going to take it to the moon but you're always hoping and like trying to get their attention to figure out how to get them to work on stuff there's actually a couple really big names that that i've worked with in seo and learned from and exchange information taught all that sort of thing uh and and really what i've heard from some clients right is yeah he's awesome but i gotta get him into the office i gotta like you know like hide all the distractions and get him to focus on it and then he can do it whatever i need to get done in like

45 minutes or whatever but it's just nailing them down right and so you know when when you're able to to to get people search rankings at the top of google it's very very powerful and you got a lot of different people pulling on you yeah and and and usually the same person that's doing that is not running the business like those are two different skill sets there's a book out there called emith i don't know if y'all heard of it but it's michael gerber yes yeah so that so so my partner chris actually every person that came in our agency that was like the first book you read right because like we all have to wear different hats at different times right and it's really important to have someone do the it and have someone do the accounting and have someone do and also doing branding for yourself yeah so branding for yourself is like the hardest like we were talking about copywriting earlier it's really difficult to to do that kind of branding for yourself yeah yeah i agree i mean i always say that i can write for other people but i always have a hard time writing about myself so like some of my bios i actually have other copywriters write for me and we just swap bios so i don't know what it is well i've seen it too that you get you get paid like if you're you're getting paid to do work for a client so if you have time to do work for yourself like like which like you don't normally have that unless it's slow you know what i mean unless it's slow down can you have time to work on your own stuff and so if i want stuff done or move the needle or you know move everything forward i typically have to go find somebody that i know and trust like you know some kind of strategic partner or someone in the industry to be like i know they're good and i'm like i

will pay you to do this because they're they're getting paid so i'm their client so they'll do it and then yeah i'll make sure it gets done and i can manage it like i'm the customer like and and when you have that knowledge back and forth you can use it get a lot done you know what i mean right um why don't you kevin why don't you tell us um a little bit about just uh overarching um when you think about copyright right so one of the things we learned at at the dax conference was basically how valuable copywriting is i think it is really the highest paid industry if you look at if you're doing blogs like what kind of content are you writing well content that sells is always going to be worth the most right you know and and we we've we've followed some of the same people there's also been some people that you've educated me that i'm going to check out and copyrighted but really if you don't know how to sell or communicate your message like like everything else falls after that and even if you know how to sell can you sell by not by not doing it like it's yeah can you sell out of a different medium well yeah you know my my background i have some sales in my background but i learned how to take that sales because it's the same it's like human psychology it's the same kind of concept it's not so much the words right it's it's how to sell them but why don't you give um everyone a little bit of a framework to uh how should they approach copywriting if they're a first time person and they're building a sales funnel themselves or they got a shopify account or um you know they're working for a client and they're having to write sales copy yeah talk about an email or just pick something and share share with us some some a case study or some information or overview yeah

so basically i mean there's plenty of templates out there for like sales letters emails social media ads but when you think of copy i think of it as just salesmanship in print like you said it's just sales right and i think a lot of writers they get stuck on the actual words themselves and how they write but you know we're not actually writers we're not like stephen king or like jk rowling right so i think about copy as like word architecture so if you reverse engineer any successful sales letters uh one of my mentors i look up to named joe sugarman he says the purpose of the first sentence is to get them to read the second sentence the purpose of the second sentence is to get them to read a third sentence so if you like take that it means that each sentence it's put there for a reason so it's work architecture so if you try to reverse engineer stuff you try to see like why is that copywriter putting that sentence there so it's like it's an actual framework of influence through words well and then and then also you were kind of talking about the frame of how you kind of speak to people right like so you're talking about infotainment we're talking about curiosity why do you feel that that's such a powerful hook well i mean humans by nature are just curious right like we always love novel things it's just a dopamine hit in our brain so whenever we present something in the market it has to sound new if it's something boring like how to make money online that's not going to resonate in today's world right yeah so okay so this general so this is super interesting okay this is something i found out right so i feel like just when we're talking about trends in general okay um everything kind of happens in the uk maybe comes to new york goes to california and then get spread out to the rest of the country right

so y'all might see it a little bit beforehand well what i'm seeing in online marketing specifically is the things that don't work here anymore okay because i did some things for some multi-million dollar earners in the mlm space or whatever so the things uh work from home and you know be your own boss and all those sort of things used to work like gangbusters in the beginning but it's been overdone yeah well guess what as these companies are starting to go to south america okay and they're starting to go to less developed countries look at brazil those yeah those things are working great yeah okay and so it's like you know the future it's information arbitrage yeah yeah totally information arbitrage i like some of these words like information well uh what is it word architecture yeah information arbitrage i never heard that yeah what you were just talking about that's like taking a concept from this book called breakthrough advertising by eugene schwartz so he talks about market expensive i heard it's worth every it's worth every dollar buy it so your money he talks about market sophistication which is how well does your market know the message right and then he talks about market awareness it's like how well does that person know that product in the marketplace is he problem aware does he know the product does he know there's a solution so they're in a different phase yeah right so you got to speak to them differently because they're already aware i want to be my own boss i've already explored those paths yeah so now you got to take take the con what is it it's like where you got to go to the conversation they're having in their own head yeah right you know yeah so that's why i'm not surprised that it'll work if you take that to a different country because all that stuff has been saturated here in the market so if they've never heard of it before you could take it to them and say

like oh this is the four hour work week and you think like they'll be like whoa this is cool yeah and why does it happen like you think oh information travels pretty much equally at that you know the speed of light you know so why are they not able to grasp it at the same time well there's language you know so like you know as people are starting to like pick up english more often in these countries right now they have access to the same you know sort of resources and they're like oh you can actually make money online yeah well let's give a try okay okay so so so when i went down this path so for the two really really big players in houston they actually one started at mlm company sold for like 400 million okay and then insanity yeah he's now in the cbd space like oh as he goes where the money's at other guy was like one of his top top producers right and so one of the things um that they they talked about was how important it was to understand um what was happening with the person and what the customer journey was yeah right and and so we we actually uh built out their whole funnel because they were like robots right they were saying the whole same thing every five minutes and i was like we can take what you're doing and move it online where you can just run them through the funnel and take them on the journey yeah you want to take them on okay and and it actually worked really well we we ran some facebook ads to the front of it um and then remarketing to the back end and then they picked it up on the end and started like close closing the candidates but it was it was really interesting that i learned from them as we were launching in new markets right so they wanted i was like i wasn't gonna go like that was like going

down the affiliate path like yeah you know what i mean i'm not i'm not doing that but but what i saw that was really interesting is people in other countries viewed being a like so here it's oversaturated right it it's it's at the level that you really got to do it at a high level because a lot of people overdone it it's just like sales people right sales people sales is not inherently bad like you're basically professionally helping someone buy but but sales has gotten like a negative connotation pushy car salesman that stuff won't work anymore yeah but it used to right it's like overdone marketers like overdo it but what's interesting is in other countries because we're at a different space uh a a a person that's doing you know multi-level marketing is making a ton of money yeah because guess what the comp payout is the same for the u.s is the same for over there so if they're making two dollars per per week or per day like venezuela it's always two dollars per week crazy but and then you're an internet marketer or you're sorry you're a you're a mlm person and you're making ten thousand dollars a month in an in a country that everybody's making two dollars a week like yeah you're like basically like i mean i don't even live like a king yeah you are a king so people were viewed so highly so highly that were in that industry and they took it really seriously because they were the they were like the wall street people they're the people that are making so much money yeah right um and and and here's something that a lot of people do know about me but i think it's important to kind of address when i look at the world today right i think that a lot of money is made or was made in the stock market right like that was a big tap of money that just flowed out well that's been overdone and people figured out

and unless you kind of are in the know you kind of don't have that i think the internet today is where maybe the stock market was where all the fortunes were made before because it's still wild west it's only 20 years old yeah you know what i mean and it's a giant tap but it's like crowdsourcing so basically this taps turning on all the money flowing into the the economy internet marketing sucking it all up from like it's it's basically what amazon's doing amazon's just sucking up all the you know everybody's work like because everybody's buying stuff they're just buying it through amazon and amazon's trying to put themselves from an arbitrage standpoint right in between you and all your wants needs desires of demand and your money and they're just the intermediary and they're taking you know 20 50 cuts on stuff from the affiliate side it's funny you mentioned that because uh you tapped into the so one of my favorite blog uh-huh it was called the wall street playboys right and yeah it's funny because i don't check that out i don't know playboys.com so like literally i'm probably one of the few people that that's brave enough to just go like and say because they're very cutthroat when it comes to they're anonymous but they've grown it to millions of views something oasis that has a bunch oh yeah these guys are even more niche okay and um for them there's three career choices right out of college and thanks god i found them right out of college because they were like you're gonna go to tech okay yeah tech tech and that's the top one for them if not you're gonna go to sales enterprise sales yeah you gotta go enterprise sales yeah if not you're gonna go wall street but guess what wall street they're all wall street guys they're like wall street doesn't quite work the same way so it's either mergers and acquisitions yeah or you go back to the other two so and that's your three

choices yeah and i i it's funny because i followed everything and everything they said to do including like whenever there's work you work and if you're young in your 20s you actually can jeopardize a little bit of your health a little bit to you know get ahead because you're still okay you know how we get no because we can go you know a lot of our a lot of my peers can go out every weekend right yeah the same way you can go out every weekend and drink and be fine the next day is you can work 14 hours 15 hours a day and be fine as well in your 20s so you chose not to drink and work yes okay uh because you know i wanted to live a better life so like i did both you did both you can do both you can do both yeah it's tough though but you know you can find you can find yeah you can find the right balance you know i mean it's not like i don't go out but it's just like i you know for them it was like there was these three paths that i had to take and okay so one of my buddies here so he works over in uh the gallery at which y'all gotta go yeah and it's basically like new york like soho in in one of the towers right and he's big in the marketing thing and he's now starting to kind of build build his brand online and he's a little you know he's working with a bunch of models and all this sort of stuff and and and and what he said what he posted like a little quote you know what i mean and i and it was a picture of him and he was like hey my buddy said i'll see you at the bar or something like that and then he's like i'll see you at the bank and it was basically somehow like you got a sacrifice right yeah a

little bit going out to or like hey we missed you on saturday at the bar and he's like hey i missed you on saturday at the bank don't get me wrong the waltz playboys they tell you to go out every thursday and saturday but you must be able to wake up the next day and and be productive yes you can go out yeah but you must be able to wake up the next day that's the rule like so that's that's how they sleep on the couch like i i got off there's this program called ags on wall stream okay and and basically they were like you're gonna make like 24 000 a year in new york okay for like three years you're gonna share like a five bedroom like or two bedroom apartment with five guys wow and you're probably gonna shower and sleep on the couch at work and you're gonna work 20 23 hours out of the day and i was just like man i'm not looking forward to that i was like i'm not looking forward to that that's crazy but uh basically the rule is you know you do one of those things right it's true you build a you build a skill you build a skill a high income skill right okay and he knows about that even better than i do but like you build a high income skill right yeah and you leverage that skill whether it's a freelancer eventually an agency right and you at some point start thinking about the product so you get you get good at one thing yeah but that's not a point productize it and then you either productize that or you start at the same time moving to the product yeah because the product can work you don't you don't have to you work it and it works for you so that's that's what i think a lot of people um are realizing right is is like they're they're trying to grow a business and they're offering their service and it's

still a time so it's still an exchange of time for for their knowledge and maybe they're not charging as much as they should be for their skill sets right they're not um yeah and and and so i think that that's one of the big things is kind of you got to value yourself properly and really got to look at what it produces i'll give you an example okay so i just uh i brought on a client in the last five months or something like that uh it started out basically we're doing an audit we do we do like paid audits with clients they came in and they want to rank for a particular keyword i'll tell you is plumber well no they actually they came in for ppc okay they wanted us to audit their ppc so i was auditing the ppc but i was also like let's look at your seo too right because i started in ppc and certified all that and we managed about quarter million a month in ppc but but i was like let's look at your seo because seo i've seen in campaigns 32x return on investment with seo 32x combined with ppc no sole so just sole because look you're looking at ppc is a one for one dollar exchange and then maybe it's a little bit less because you got to pay a management fee right if you're a company or whatever you don't know how to do it well you know google's getting expensive right it's easy to buy ads and you know okay it's got to be relevant to rank or whatever but but seo is harder there's 250 something different ranking factors all these sort of things but so people are going to go ppc first let's just throw money at it right well when that number gets out of whack you got to do something different right and also too if you go into like sem rush or something they calculate dollar per click you know based on your position how many clicks

you average get and then it comes up with a value for your website so like if you were to buy and sell a website right um you want to look at what that number is well this search had 2900 searches in houston keyword difficulty was under 60 so it was easy or low or whatever it's not nothing's easy but it was in in the lower demographic and they were position seven or no position five they're position five and basically they came to me and they said i like so we went through two hours of stuff and they're like what's your you know what's your summary and i was like well i can write it up for you but i can give it to you right now if you want it you know i was like because i didn't want to like write it up you know so i just wanted to tell it to them or whatever because people are starting to expect papers so we do these workshops up to workshops so we you know type everything up and that takes a long time right but so this was like a shorter consulting session it's like you need to rank number one for plumber houston and they were like we already knew that and they also had their marketing guy in the room okay which i didn't know it i thought so i'm basically like you know educating but that's what this is right so who cares and and so they were like we already knew that and i was like then why aren't you doing that everything you should be doing should be ranking this keyword if this is the business intent this keyword is worth like 29 a click or something like that i was like this is the thing that's going to move the needle the most and they're like what is it going to take to do it and the owner is in the room and i was like and they just like put me on the spot and i

was just like and i was i've done two hours of analysis so i kind of had in my head what i think i could do and i was just like i'll do it for five grand money back and and then or i don't know if they said it or i said i probably didn't say it but they were like money back guarantee and i was like sure whatever risk reversal yeah and like right and i'm like i'm really fairly confident that like i can i can hit a home run and i was like all right so i'll do it in 90 days or less and then basically um and so there's some sites out there that do this sort of thing but they're not very good it's like uh rank pay or something something like that where they try to say you only pay for results but basically i said okay if i get you in the the fourth position uh i'll give you set in 90 days or less i'll get you 75 percent of your money back and then if i get you in the third position i'll give you 50 percent of your money back because i did work and i moved the needle and also each needle each spot you move up you get significantly more traffic which is going to translate into more business right and then second position i was like 25 percent i get you in first position um you know i don't or first position i'll give you anything and i said also i can't guarantee how long you're going to stick in this first position for because now we got dwell time we got you know do they take any action like the website you know needed a little bit of work in my opinion you know so i was just i can't promise how long it's going to stick you know what i mean 62 days first position stuck there for three weeks okay whoa right so they became a monthly client after that i

mean basically we hit the trust factor immediately right they're like oh my gosh what else can you do for us and so so that actually really worked out very very quickly so i looked at what that website's worth okay okay and um in google google or sem rush sorry eighty thousand dollars a month in google ad spend eighty thousand dollars a month they're not paying me even if they're profitable there then you're talking yeah so so so what i should have done what i should have done and i'm kind of like thinking about this because really like you're working with some of these really big brands i have a few publicly traded companies but not like all publicly traded companies like you and yeah you know we should talk about some certain stuff but yeah you know you but but the thing is that's really really valuable to the company and i'm outranking some big players i'm outranking people that have billboards around houston like no one knows who this company is this is like it's it's crazy and they're just crushing it like they love us like they're crushing it of course eighty thousand dollars a month in traffic multiplied over 12 months okay and they're they're spending under five grand with us okay it's like that that value proposition is massive okay and the thing is what i should have done like just thinking from an internet marketer standpoint right is like hey i'll do it at risk at my risk but if i do it i want whatever this number if it's 80 i want what is the management fee like most coverage charge for ppc 15 percent 20 percent yeah so i'll take 20 percent of that and then it becomes a fair a fair arrangement yeah right because they're just and and and they've been able to increase their price point of their products because they have so much demand right and they have so much time so if you have the demand you can raise your prices right that's

true yeah so so that i don't know so that that's some of the kind of struggles that that that that i know we're going through we've like productized services like you know you kind of talked about you know really we're we're looking at making our um you know like we do a lot of blogs we write a lot of pieces of content on page downloadables little ebooks all kinds of stuff that helps for seo but it's not direct direct response now yeah you know um we do do email drips and we have pretty good open rates to drive it but there's there's there's not as much as you have the fundamentals of like well how much did this make like why don't you why don't you just for everybody i think it'd be cool to tell if you don't mind if you can the story with ty about how you got to working with them and then like some of what some of the campaigns because i think it's just the coolest story yeah so basically back in december uh my startups failed i learned copywriting just to for my offers and my startups andre's worked in one of them with me oh yeah i was there so he knew how it was so basically i was like well back then i was doing everything i was doing the pvc i was doing facebook ads i was trying to learn seo and like web design and all that because we all had to wear different hats for startups you used to call them the men with the mba so i was like i'm just going to focus down on what i think my strongest skill is and i thought that was copywriting because i spent a really long time learning it and i was like i'm going to try to write for clients so the first few people i tried to reach out to i wanted to do for free because you know i was untested i didn't know whether or not anything i was

doing was completely right or not so then i saw that ty was hiring in new york and i reached out to his team and they messaged me back they're like hey come to new york for two days we'll get you a hotel room and we can do a work sample so i get there and he was like all right i was like everyone is gonna cold call i was like oh this is a copy right i was like i don't know i don't know about this i've never sold anything over the phone before but i was like all right whatever so i made 60 calls the first day and on the 61st call i finally closed someone on a course and i was like yes i could sell over the phone now so i went to bed my soul was crushed after making all those calls the next day i showed up in the first half hour i sold like 1500 i was off to a hot start and then i talked to him about copywriting he's like yeah i'm just looking at higher sales people he's like but we'll reach out if it's a good thing so you applied for a copywriter and he just said he said come on anyway and they put you in a sales room yeah he also didn't you get into a little argument with ty about copy marketing versus or copywriting versus sales no no no so bait i asked him he said introverts make the best sales people but introverts that adapt right so like kind of more of ambivert and i was like oh i mean that's that's interesting because i feel like charismatic people extroverted people make the best sales people and i was like so what is your stance on copywriting he's like oh it's the same thing it's it's just salesmanship in print which i fully agree with yeah so after that when i left new york uh two weeks later his team reached out to me and he was like do you

want to write us one email i was like one email well that's not really testing what i could do i'll write you an entire sequence and after i did that they called me back to new york to continue working with his team for like a week or so and i didn't know what the numbers were but i got someone to show me the numbers of what i've done within the two promotions through emails and it generated like close to six figures and i was like whoa i could do this that was more than cold call yeah that was a lot better than cold call it was automatic yeah yeah so after that i kind of grew more confidence in what i could do so i just leveraged that to grab more people in the info product space but now i'm kind of transitioning more to health i think there's a huge opportunity for there and you know i studied pharmacy in school before i left that field completely so health is just natural to me so yeah a little bit of club plug here for a little bit chris perils for all you see that you can listen yeah that's the bobblehead chris but um you know it looks like uh y'all are going to be doing uh some stuff with chris's other company and yeah and uh it should be exciting yeah you know it had had have had you in the studio and talking to some of our team like we got like a seo team we got a ppc or a conversion click team internally kind of head-to-head you've been spending some time with them you've been spending some time copywriters and and really here at uweb results we're always trying to up our game too and so it's going to be exciting yeah i think we're going to share so much data it's going to be yeah interesting and really i mean that's what marketing has become right data analysis like more than anything else right what people do your audience

want you know kevin and i spoke about it we're going to probably secretly document a lot of the stuff that's going on and depending that's not so secret secret that it's not going to go it's not going to go out every day and it's not going to go every month but it's going to be you know documented at some point private secret if you know we decide if we decide it'll actually you know yeah so what we realized is like some of the stuff on clickbank it's basically people taking free information and organizing yeah yes so i know this credit offer that did he basically his credit score is bad and this guy pretty much took free resources and packaged in a book yeah and he started selling it at 20 bucks and when he started focusing on it started doing like six figures a month and then he ran an infomercial on it yeah and then he actually started doing five to six million a month and he actually sold it the company recently after they've done 50 million in sales but basically it all came off the back of just gathering free resources that got results and packaging it up yeah no and and really we were talking about the dopamine right that's why uh google google's just doing what visitors do so like like uh ordered lists like people feel like oh i got an order list that's why all the downloadables are ordered lists because it's like you get that shot of dopamine yeah right and you're like i have all the information i ever need yeah right in this order list or or whatever go ahead that's interesting because you said something you know fascinating with most info products right because if you ever produced you know any info products you realize that there's a decent you have to work on like getting people to consume it there's like a 20 that consumes it all and then there's 80 that utilizing it yeah like execution is almost nothing right like

you just buy it and then it just sits on the shelf because you're busy right and um i listened to jay abraham and jordan belfer and uh and uh their podcast yeah i love his new podcast yeah and um sort of jay described you know sort of why that happens as insurance so 80 of the people buying that see the information see that organization of information and that availability of information as insurance if they decide to go that way if they ever need it it's organized and packaged and it's there for them well you know the thing that got me into info products was it was actually a facebook ad and like so really the the big thing that's driven me is a computer and a phone and work anywhere in the world like that was basically when i was graduating from school what i wanted biz ups yeah and what they did is they took a bunch of people that were like bloggers and all kinds of stuff like all these different things travel agents and all this stuff and they basically all wrote like a chapter or whatever and then it was like 16 of the people that and then they were showing pictures and the video was like you know working on a beach like in a little shop with wi-fi and all this kind of stuff and so i i bought that it was like 500 bucks man and then they did the upsells and i bought it all i was like i was like i got this course and i was like i'm gonna do this and then like i never like set a deadline and then just i got busy with life or like i had another job or whatever and and i i knew that until i fully really committed and i created deadlines and to do's and everything like i wasn't gonna execute on it right and and uh but it was there but i was like that's awesome you know what i mean like and and

that opportunity and that's what it was it was insurance yeah right it was insurance um you know but i'm i'm big on taking action right like oh yeah i'm i'm really big on taking action and and really the biggest thing i walked away from from the conference we went to is like hey linkedin right linkedin's where you need to be since we've been back you know it's been about 30 days dude i posted multiple times on linkedin i've been testing out the algorithm as we were kind of talking about earlier um and i just applied for the linkedin beta like i was like that's my goal right my goal is to get to linkedin beta and then i got a really big microphone right and and the algorithm changed with facebook like last march and and so that's so that's and then tiktok right i'm not doing anything on tiktok yeah but but i'm focused on one thing with a goal and i'm working that plan and doing that and that's that's really what i'm big about and that's what we look for and people we hire and partners that we build is hey like like let's set a plan let's set some milestones and let's knock it out and let's move the ball down the court and get it done for clients for ourselves you know that sort of thing and so you know if i was ever to do an info product you know like you really gotta vet like because if they take the information and they don't do anything with it they're gonna say it's your fault yeah right and that's when you get creative you know i think uh not many of them leverage like interactions like making it interactive because getting people to actually because it takes more money right i mean if you're gonna make an interactive software right it's more expensive but guess what it gets people to well also like those people that would sell real estate right they're like you know buy a house with

other people's money they always push so hard to do the coaching piece right yeah and i thought they were just pushing for more money but i think they're pushing the coaching piece because they actually wanted it to work for you yeah you know what i mean yeah yeah you need it you know and um or else you end up with that gap and you know people become insanely rich you know out of that 20 percent that actually you know because those become the testimonials right they actually cool actually those are like oh it actually does work you know and yeah yeah well i i i think that a lot of people would want to learn how to work with big brands okay i mean you're you're working can you can you mention any names or you yeah we can all of them yeah and a lot of it comes from agencies that we work with right um big in the wpp network so because of that we ended up working with like four lincoln colgate home depot uh-huh how many of you want to work with some of those companies and you know it's kind of sweet working with people that are trying to spend the money you know they have a budget yeah that's different it's like it's not it's not like where's all the money going it's like we got to blow our we got we got this money in a year we're gonna lose half our department right yeah like those are the kind of clients you want and um i think that we've all we already mentioned most of the stuff that that because it's all we use direct response to get in the door of these companies sure right you got to get them to take action you got to you got to hit the pain points right you got to hit the pain points you got to get them to take action you have to really big you have to be really big into risk reversal with them yeah

because they work with some you know company or a contractor and they've been working with them for a while right yeah but a lot of them actually have hesitations with them like they're like uh i've been working with them they're mediocre but it you gotta find you gotta find you know it gets the job done right yeah so you know it's hard to switch right there's a there's a there's a change cost right like when you have a legacy system and you're like having to convert to something new yeah you know or to move buildings or to move house that's why people stay in houses so long it's like they don't want to move yeah you know what i mean like yeah yeah and um you take something in our case you know we're we're an interactive web development agency so we take the smallest piece we can which is an interactive banner and we're like hey we'll we'll do you and this was kevin's invention by the way and you know it was like we'll do it we'll do it for free you know we'll do you a set for free and they're like are you guys insane like it's a couple grand i'm like yeah we'll do it we'll do it for free and once we finish that first set and like what do you think you know we have a well you got over the trust bar and you proved that you can what was your customer experience and they're happy you know i guess you're happy so yeah do you have any more work um they're like yeah yeah we have you know three more now um yeah and from there like okay so you know we we we're we're pretty good on the web stuff yeah that website of yours could use some help yeah no i would love to to to talk about this all day i think it's i think it's really interesting i mean you know we're working with the publicly traded company down to the pressure

washer around the corner right and everyone in between um i can i can tell you we we have a similar kind of risk reversal where yeah you know really you know asking someone to spend a couple thousand dollars um you know and they just met you that's tough right so you need to spend more time with them right and you need to provide more value to them right more value how do you get access to just their time because attention is so valuable right so you got to give something away of value well strategy execution can be done if you build the right team or the processor system right but the strategy if the strategy is wrong or the execution you got to have both right you need both you have needed both and how do you know if you get the right strategy you want to go to an expert that you trust to get that expertise that's what i talk about in the book you know yeah trusted advisor like it's really important for people to trust who you are yeah well people people you know and also think about this okay you you spend okay so you know i think we'll work together but so say we go head to head right with a client right you spent 30 minutes hour two hours on your sales pitch whatever okay and this is what dan kennedy says whoever can spend the most money to acquire a client exactly wins yeah a little negative but if yeah yeah but guess what so i like what you're doing don't get me wrong i'm actually thinking about in my head how how we might be able to implement something like that but what i've done is i said hey let's so so mine is like hey why don't we date before we get married let's like get to know each other yeah you know but hey i gotta pay for my time too because if you don't set these hard deadlines um or kind of gate

what's going on you could have 20 meetings and get nowhere right so it's like there's got to be like a process well you know i can spend the time with a paid client right but i need to know you're serious i need to know you're not a tire kicker and i'm going to give you insane amount of value now look if you want value listen to the podcast check out the book but if you want one-on-one like i only have so much time in the day like i gotta yeah i gotta protect my time right and so i said but if you want to buy a little bit of my time see what it's like test it out and then see if you want more yeah but now think about that in a whole different context so i'm i'm going up against clients or other agencies for for work right um that have spent 30 minutes with them or hour i'm spending two hours with them and i'm getting paid plus maybe another 30 minutes or an hour or whatever so now i've spent more time so the no the like right the trust i can i can build that yeah and i can show that and they get they get visibility into what we're doing and what the strategy is and if they don't like the strategy you know what give your money back yeah like if you think i'm full of hot air exactly i'll give you your money back but i just want to know you're serious so i want you to put money down and we'll put it towards whatever but guess what if you're unhappy and here's the thing that's crazy and we're changing this for some of you if you're listening know who you are so people have called in okay one was this parasol and calling i don't remember the name of the company so and i'm not hating on it right okay i am hating on it i'm totally hating on it i'm hating on this i

don't remember who this guy was so this was when we first started about a year and a half doing the prop plan so so we it was we started like 500 bucks now it's like 600 bucks now we actually have marketing workshop like 1500 bucks right and and that could go up too because it's it's all about the value exchange right and like you know we're now building out deliverables and all this kind of stuff it's it's really getting pretty pretty slick on and and clients really really like it because if you don't have that target persona if you don't have the buyer's journey going into it um you're just guessing right and you got to do that stuff anyway so let's do it in chunks and let's do it in easily consumable format but this guy came back a year later after leaving us a positive review and said i want my money back i don't like i was like it's been a year like yeah like like there's got to be some there's like but but guess what i didn't put yeah i didn't put on the the the thing like you know only good for whatever yeah and and so you know what i did and he goes i'll leave you bad reviews but i was like dude like you were happy you're just needing money now yeah and you're coming to dig on me and you're threatening me with bad reviews and i was like you know what you clearly need the money more than i do and so like whatever helps you sleep at night dude here's your money back and we've done that like three times but that's the thing there's going to be some bad actors yeah and everybody's dealt with like bad actors bad clients but the thing is the the wins that came out of it can you talk about the ratio between those those give give your money back versus thanks to that strategy yeah i mean you know like it's it it way outseeds

it you know what i mean and and so you know i i believe and if you hear a lot of kind of people talking in online marketing space or or info product space you got to just you got to just give give your best stuff away like we give it all away like people know what we do and how we do it it's completely transparent it's not like black box yeah for seo and people trust that and i think a lot of people don't have time to do it or they want to run their own business and so they're like i know what you're doing or i trust that i know think you know what you're doing and i and i'm seeing stuff and it's working and i want to run the business that i started to run i didn't go into this to become an internet marketer because a lot of you almost have to start to become an internet marketer today with like yeah lead gen online if you're not selling you're being sold yeah yeah yeah and another thing about risk reversal too especially with info products i read the best risk reversal i've ever seen was this guy who had a webinar for a list building product and his risk reversal was if you finish this course and do everything in 12 months you have a year i'll give you all your money back so wow i actually read like a track and wistia or something like that yeah yeah so he did everything no no doubt that that helped him get sales but i recently read like an updated he posted like an updated for people right you know like for people that did it yeah but i read like an updated post by him and he ended up giving back 1.4 million dollars of like refunds of people who finished the course and took him up on that guarantee i don't know but he actually he actually went through like kind of a health crisis in the middle so

he was siphoning out like seventy thousand dollars a month with these refunds while making no income because he couldn't work well i don't know like i think if you can do things to help people grow like yeah they're gonna appreciate it and they're gonna reciprocate and kind of because that's all we're talking about is reciprocation like hey i'm gonna give you value or help you and then reciprocate back i know we've we've we've talked about that um quite a bit yeah since since we've gotten to gotten to know each other you know i i think that um you know what i've seen is there's a lot of people in the digital marketing space that you know are trying to kind of break through where they're at they're trying to add team there's like you got a product high services you got to build systems you got to learn all these different components um i i think it would be really interesting if if we uh you know i don't know like so i got a couple guys that built some pretty amazing info products and weight loss okay and like for some pretty big names out there and we and we really are a digital agency right that's like our core product we've added kind of consulting piece to it but you know we're we're we're adding videography and we're we're actually going to build like a online media channel that's kind of really one of the directions we're taking the company but that that goes into infomercials and info products right so like infomercial um like sponsorship so you know scm rush wanted to sponsor a podcast not too long ago and like like so there's like there's a whole component of like internet marketing affiliate market that we haven't really tapped into and really we've started to see with chris's business and and some of the people we hired with affiliate marketing background and you know pushing stuff out there and and yeah and we've really built out some funnels we built funnels

for a guy that's on stage with robert kiyosaki i know y'all were looking at that earlier and and so so i think next year we're really going to move into that and i think one of the things that a lot of people want to know is like how do i scale my business how do i grow my business you know how do i build that and and what are the key components like how do i work with big brands how how do i write emails that people are going to get back to me how do i hire people um you know how do how do i um build a productized service that works that's scalable right all these things i think a lot of people are asking for we've been kind of talking about and i just you know i don't want to put you all on the spot or anything like that but you know um i don't know i feel like we should we should we should do a mastermind like i feel like i think that you know a lot of people would get benefit you've seen the place we're putting in new glass doors we've got all these conference rooms it's like really nice setup we got a huge room over here um you know and we're we're we're growing pretty aggressively and and really the the the agency is doing quite well um we we've got a lot of good testimonials out there um ivan we appreciate all the uh video testimonials so we go in to shoot a video for them like hey you want to do a video testimonial for us and so so we've been building kind of that that that literature up and there's a lot of people that are in our marketers out there that um i think want to know this stuff i mean i know you know i i would love to have a lot of big brands that we work with i mean we we run the gambit i i love helping

people but also it takes a lot of time sometimes to educate people um that that don't totally understand how it works so a lot of people like how like the data's wrong and then we got to show them how to use data and i like doing that and i think that's but that should be the focus right so if you buy agency work it should be deliver agency services and i like providing education but education separate than agency services right and so we really need to build out instructors and courses and provide that education component on the front end right and so you move through it i mean that's the the whole reason i wrote that book there's a lot of people uh yeah no you like it right yeah no tell me tell me your thoughts on the book you know i mean you've read like half of it in like one night like that was crazy it's like a few hours and we already had a few drinks with chris too so i i i looked at it and um it pretty much has like everything you kind of need you know so it's uh for me like uh i'm kind of like kevin's student you know so uh he's uh he he needed to he's getting a lot of copywriting work and he's like oh i'm gonna have to train someone else i want to but and then that that happened to be me so like uh nice it happened i was like oh this actually if anyone's starting out you know like a very newbie guy and what's like go from that to like okay now i know what to execute this is the next step right or take about take on a client on risk reversal to test your skills up yeah you know i think this is the no i mean yeah i mean i think why i wrote that was like so so chris had been doing the podcast for like 10 years okay so we got 400

and this is probably 466 67 episodes right all you know tons of great content right and and really um you know google is continuing to change and so so you got to always stay on your toes but that podcast is for hardcore people seo internet marketers how to set up email drips automations all that sort of thing this is like hey i want to get into it yeah like i want to under i want how do i build that like i don't even understand like yeah compass or a framework to get started so this is and also to to hire me one-on-one because there's only so much time of day to do consulting i was like let me put it in a book yeah and like read the book and then like you know and if you're a business like a small business right like and you say like this isn't your marketing stuff this online marketing stuff doesn't work for me i'm sorry but you're gonna be dead soon so get well you're gonna you're gonna fall behind right right so we do a lot of home service we do a lot of professional service if your name's in the title it doesn't matter what you do if you're not there you're gonna be out and you need to start i think the gap's starting to widen like between like because the big brands are starting to come in they're starting to spend tons of money on a monthly basis and so you got to get on the big brand side or you got to start building your footprint your your audience today because it's it's starting to get a little crowded i see it every month you know and going back to that mastermind idea i think i think it's the right way to do it you know i mean we're down yeah like uh you know there's a lot of people out there that can execute they're skillful and they could do stuff but teaching is another skill in its own like

i'm gonna be honest i'm not i could write copy but i'm not very good at teaching it and that's something i'm learning by having andres as my guinea pig well that's how you learn it i feel like when you can teach it that's when you really really know it you know what i mean like right and you've been able to scale an agency and actually write a book on branding so it just shows that you've been able to teach it you know how to teach it so i think a lot of people organize the information yeah you can organize the information that's a valuable skill too so i feel like a lot of people can get benefit learning from you in person right because you've done it you've scaled this agency from what nine to 60 some clients in a short period amount of time yeah right and there's not there's a lot of people out there teaching on a starting agency but what do you go from there yeah what happens once you understand a little bit about internet marketing how do you grow it how do you scale it i mean there are certain key skill sets that you need you know and also different strategies and really for me what it is going back to what you said is like uh at kind of the beginning of this podcast was you know really how i started is like i found good information and i just followed it textbook you know what i mean yeah and and also when i started my last company that that i exited successfully um there was like a it was like written in the 50s like old school manual right like just like these good marketing books so you just read it and you're like that headline will still work or if i tweak it but i basically just did what the textbook said and it worked yeah and if you apply that to it and and and that's really what i've seen with internet marketing is

when i've found good people i've dived into it i've read youtube academy taught me almost everything i know and then and then the next step was applying it against client data and and seeing how that worked and now that we have such a broad breadth of uh different clients across the board it's really about the methodology and then there's little nuances but it works and so you know i know exactly how we're going to grow from here yeah where we're going to go what that roadmap looks like how we're going to build that and also we're moving towards higher end brands and so we're going to need strategic partners and so if i'm going to refer someone business i want to know that they do it the way that i think is supposed to be done and then i can confidently go hey you need to go talk to joe over here because joe does internet marketing the way i believe in or in the methodology i have so kind of looking for like certified partners in that aspect of it i got another guy uh here locally um that is moving in the software and he's built all these awesome seo tools he has a really good sized agency and we're kind of like two porcupines like talking you know and um seeing how that's going to go but but there's a lot of big things i mean we really i know you can't can't see watching this podcast but you can see maybe on on linkedin or on facebook some of the pictures we've been pushing out of some of the the changes that that we're making and how we're growing i mean we just have we have this great facility and i was just like man we got a glass of all the walls like we gotta like take it i saw one of frank kern's videos and i was like man that office looks way nicer i was like i know not to say this office is not nice but i

was like no it needs to be all glass yeah and so so so there so these are classroom settings like i think we could structure a workshop uh pretty easily with some of the people we know we could bring in some speakers and just do like like not do some crazy conference but people that are really serious yeah people that are really serious that that you know been been doing it for a while and they maybe hit a roadblock know what a twenty five hundred dollar or five thousand dollar client's worth to them and how quickly like five or ten grand would would pay off like if someone just shows you how to do it like it's totally worth it and then we can do like case studies and stuff i don't know and the beauty of it is like you know a good student a good student we'll look at this book follow it step by step and do exactly what it is there and you'll be you know yeah but imagine being sitting in a room with us yeah you know but a great student will look at this book read it and add to it right and that's like i think the purpose of any mastermind right you don't come in you don't come in for a conference you're good for that you come into like the host like let's say we hosted we have to be influenced by the people there too and we'll learn you know from them and whatever we know now exactly yeah whatever we know now you know we'll learn something completely new and that could change the game for us and everyone else i mean one client i what is one big client worth right one idea you know like how to acquire a client from a different industry that you don't even know and they're like oh wow let me try that and then boom yeah it pays for itself plus a huge multiple right so it's a it's a everyone's it's a it's a

network of value you know okay well you know uh you know when we push out this podcast i like yeah eweb results you know forward slash dot com forward slash mastermind something like that yeah we'll put we'll put something together and um you know if if you're listening to this um you know check back but we're well i guess we'll just throw up like a you know a holder page yeah if if you're interested you can give us your email address and and uh well you know so i have i i have a baby coming in like january so we would have to like push this out to you know mid next year or something but but i'm down dude i'm down i'd love to have your back thanks for coming down we came into a podcast and now we're in a mess it's just this that's the beauty of this industry i love it so much because we just like are just like doing stuff that's fun man and like helping people and and then and then the byproduct of adding value for people yeah is making money you know yeah it's yeah it's awesome well awesome yeah thanks man thanks for having us yeah yeah is there anything else uh you you want to share or anything else you want to say before we get out of here uh no i mean a final word of wisdom i don't know yeah i guess like i i think a lot of people get stuck on consuming information and stuff like that but the best way to really grow is to consume a piece of information but don't move on until you take action on it right that's that's the fastest way i've learned to get to where i am in yeah less than a year and uh yeah that's true and every time you can add human interaction to anything it'll probably succeed more you know you gotta remember you're dealing with people even yeah it is like a one-on-one if somebody collaborates whether

it's your service like figure out you know it's done for you but sometimes when you you add a little bit of done with you to it a little twist to that people appreciate what's going on more behind the scenes you know and they feel like they did it themselves too so it's everyone feels good you know i love that yeah well thank you so much yeah thank you man yeah thank you man yeah yeah thank you man yeah yeah