The Best SEO Podcast Featuring Special Guests from New York! #466

I was like, live? Live? I should go live? Like Facebook Live? Well, you know, so you can go live on, well, I applied for it. I applied for the LinkedIn beta on Monday. They said it would take three weeks to get back to me though. So I posted videos non-stop for like a month and then I applied. I was like, because I figured they're only going to look back like 30 days. Yeah, man, you're like some sort of human hacker. I don't know. We figured out like the mobs of everything. Well, no, I was really trying to figure out. So like I'll post two posts. So I'll post one post. I'll give you an example. I'll post two memes. And also here's something I found out about LinkedIn. I'm going to put all this in the paper. Like GIFs don't work on mobile unless you use the mobile GIFs. So you have to convert it to MP4 and then post it. But what I've been doing is I've been like on Friday, like TGI Friday, right? TGIF. So I'll post a picture of a girl and a guy like a meme and see which one does better, right? And then I'll post in the mornings and like during the day, during the week, at night, on the weekends. And also I'm looking at the audience, right? So I'm looking at the audience of like who's seen what. So what I've found is there's a lot less people on at night. Like after seven, like everybody's on Facebook. I think everybody's on Facebook. But the people that are on LinkedIn are like our target persona, right? It's a small business owner. Or big business. Or big. The directors, the producers, that sort of thing. But you've got to look at like salespeople and recruiters are on during the day. But after that, so on the weekends, so I started posting on the weekends. Like I did a post on a weekend and I got a bunch of views on it and I was looking at who

was looking at it, right? It's like owner. You know, owner or executive officer or president or CEO or whatever. So it's really interesting about how people are using it. Also, I've been using different hashtags. Some I've been using a lot. Some I've been using different ones. So I'll give you an example. If you hashtag like agency, it won't get a bunch of views. But if you hashtag awards or you hashtag recruiting tip or hiring tip, it goes viral. So really, they're trying to figure out the user intent. So I have this one really good video that Ivan did on like we build responsive websites, all the integrations, plug-ins, different platforms, adding videos, all that sort of thing. I haven't pushed that out yet. But if I hashtag that anything sales related, I don't think it's going to get very much visibility. So they want like education first. Well, I think they want hiring first and then I think they want education. And then they want like recognition, you know what I mean? And they're looking at like what you're doing on the algorithm, like how many likes and like, you know how people are like, you like your own stuff? Yeah, you should because I don't know if it's weighted less, but it's definitely like weighted. Does that make sense? And so I'll go back. I won't like it out of the gate. I'll go back and like it later. Then I'll go back and comment, you know, we'll respond. So there's kind of how the algorithm kind of works. Yeah. I heard that when you post something, it pushes it out to like a certain number of people first, like your top engagers. And they'll see who responds. And if that has good response, they'll push your posts even further out to the rest of your connections. And that's how like Facebook personal profile works too, I heard. Yeah. Well, so I have some posts, okay. And I start off with just like funny videos and stuff like that. I was getting 40,000 like

views, like I got a hundred thousand views. And basically what I was doing is I was just putting my logo and then like on the bottom of the image and pushing that out. And then I was driving them to, you know, like a calendar we set up, but a lot of the people were just people that want to learn about internet marketing. So now I'm pushing to like our podcast, the best SEO podcast.com. And, you know, now things are really changing. Like Facebook works pretty well. How you got to do Facebook now is you only have 6,000 friends, right? And you max out, you have to tag people. So when you post on Facebook, like if we did a post on Facebook or we're doing this live, I would tag like my whole team, y'all, anybody you could, because then it shows it in their feeds. And then, and that's how you get the expansion. Yeah. Funny thing about LinkedIn is, so I did a post, okay. And it's how the system's built. So I did a post and like, for whatever reason, I decided I wanted to delete it. Okay. So I deleted it, but people had already liked the post. So it continued. Then I deleted the next one, but more people had liked it. So it was going all these different directions. So know that if you put it out there on social media, if anybody comments on likes, I think it creates a new page or something like that. And then that has its own life of its own. But then I was like thinking, okay, well, if I deleted that, does the engine stop, right? Because the main post, the driver, didn't have any effect. That post got 500 something views. It's like, you got to think of the purpose of like social media networks, right? Their business model, it's all based on engagement, right? Even though their profits come from sales, right? Like a lot of times people actually, well, you're buying attention, right? People are buying attention, right?

So they're like, you know, if you ever looked at this concept of demand aggregation, where like they stand, it's like the concept of companies that stand in the middle of two of, they're not supplying arbitrage. They're not demanding. Like Zillow, eventually they do, like they stop. Well, because they build up their bigger clients on their own. Exactly. And that's why like Kevin and I used to go after that market when we started, you know, the tech, you know, sort of the tech app world, right? And the problem was that we were not only in charge of generating demand, we were also in charge of generating supply. So when you work in a double-sided market, it's tough, right? And you can't survive. Because it's two different businesses. Unless you raise a bunch of money. So how a lot of them get started is they buy the demand on one side, grow the market on the other side, and then they develop the other market. But you've got to have money to be able to- You have to play negative for years. Well, no. I mean, my last startup I was building basically for medical professionals. We were basically scraping a bunch of different hospital jobs all around the country. It was generating on a daily basis because we didn't have a strong enough spider to do it. You know, we got it up to like every half day or something like that, but then we were having to get clients, right? So we were getting clients to join the platform to pay us, but then we had to get candidates. So we had jobs, I got that, and then we got about 72 clients, but I wasn't getting enough candidates. So then I would have to run ads on those jobs to get enough clients to it. And then, you know, what's a good level of demand, right? So sometimes I would overspend to over-deliver for the client because it's a beginning plat. So you're in this conundrum, right? Yeah, and you have- timing is important

because if somebody who's supplying the whatever shows up but there's no demand and vice versa- Yeah, so you're juggling a bunch of plates, you know? Yeah, and it's honestly why I stopped. Well, you know, if you just operate within the pre-set confines and you just compete, like so I'm an athlete or whatever, like competing on a high level, well, instead of creating my own marketplace, my own environment, all my own community, let me compete in the area where the people already is, there's already a set rules, and then you can build an audience out of that and then later on move it. But to build it all from scratch, you're right, you gotta go negative for a long time. And if you think about it, the really good ones, like Zillow, like as a great example, it goes back to our typical marketing strategies, right? Particularly in direct response where you have a lead magnet, right? You give something for free in order to generate, you know, sort of like demand, right? Well, they're just doing SEO like anybody else. I mean, they're just doing demand generation. Think of Zillow, right? Before they could get people's eyes to actually go and check the listings. Remember the Zestimate, where you go and actually check the value of a house? It was a free tool. Sure. Like people would go for that. Well, like Glassdoor, right? Glassdoor and hiring. Exactly. It's the same thing as giving a free book. What does Yelp do? Is there any redeemable value of Yelp at all? I don't know. I heard Yelp messes with the restaurants that go and place on it. They're like gangsters. You got to give them money or they'll show ads on your profile and they'll hide reviews. They recruited at my school. I was looking at working for them. I'm glad I didn't. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. Yelp and like, oh, so we got a review on Yelp and this person left us like some crazy review. And I like pulled all the way

back for like 20 years. This person never worked with us and I'm like, who is this person? And then I can't even reach out to them, you know what I mean? So I had to respond through the platform or whatever. But I don't know. And then Yelp also, a couple other clients that told me this, like a review is a review is a review and they're going to decide if it's a good review or not or if it's valuable or not. But they're not verifying if it's even legit. You know what I mean? And it's their call. You can't even like protest it. So this is something you didn't know. So I just got on the marketing committee for Better Business Bureau and I didn't even know this. Did you know that they have dispute resolution offices and it's like a free service that like if there's a dispute between two businesses, they'll like be a facilitator for it? Isn't that pretty cool? Yeah. I mean, and that's a big part of what they do. And I didn't know that. I go there to check like mostly what people are saying, complaints, because it gives you like so much insight into like a product and you're like, oh. And if you verify yourself, you can really see what's behind that. Okay. But what about Amazon? If you're buying a product or it depends what platform, right? But that's what all the platforms do is do reviews. So do you weight different platforms differently for reviews? For reviews, it's interesting because on Amazon, I actually probably don't care much about reviews. It's weird, but I think it's rankings more important than what's on Amazon. I look for the Amazon basics. Like, you know, they just find something good that's selling and then they rip it off and then they sell it for cheaper, but it's usually good. And that's like, I know that's pissing a lot of people off, but yeah. But that's what they do, right? So they're looking at all the data. Well, no,

we should get started here. Now we get started. Let's get started. But, you know, welcome to this episode of the Unknown Secrets Internet TV. My name is Matt Bertram. This is Chris Burris. For all you can't see, we got his bobblehead here. I had two gentlemen drop by the office that we linked up at a conference up in New York not too long ago. Kevin, Andres, why don't you all kind of introduce yourself, talk a little bit about your specialties, and then we can just continue the conversation, see where it goes. So as Matt said, my name is Kevin. I'm primarily a direct response copywriter. I've worked with a lot of the big social media influencers with their info products. And recently, I just... You can't drop any names. Do you have NDAs out there? I'll drop some names. So I've worked with Tai Lopez, Dan Henry, Mentor Box. And now I'm starting to transition more into health. So I'm working with V Shred now. They're pretty big on YouTube. And I have a pharmacy background, so that's kind of more of my thing anyway. That resonates with me. Those are some big names. We've got a lot of digital marketers on that list. And so it's great to have you here and provide an insight. I appreciate you stopping by. Andres? All right. So I own this agency, co-owned with actually Kevin, as of a year ago. And the name of the agency is 3D Studio. And we primarily just do interactive web development for big Madison Avenue agencies and big brands. And funny enough, it's the only thing we've ever done, right? So we figured out a way to knock on the doors of big brands and say, hello, we have this thing. Can we work with you? Interesting. Yeah. And when you do that, you get to see the difference of working with a seven-figure business versus a nine-figure, $10 billion company, a publicly traded company. And there's no difference. And that's what I think people need to get in their heads.

Well, that was one of the things that at the conference they talked a lot about is moving up channel and moving significantly up channel, right? So a lot of digital marketers are working with the small local businesses and they're trying to uptick their brand. And so it's interesting to hear that coming in, you already had your target persona of who you wanted to go after and you only grabbed those, right? And so I think a lot of people are going to want to hear about it. And I mean, Madison Avenue, I know maybe there's some geographical aspect to it because you are in Brooklyn, but I don't think that that's it, right? Yeah, no, it definitely started ... You definitely nailed it because it started ... I mean, Kevin knows. It started by accident, really. I was in a coffee shop in Brooklyn and met someone who worked at one of these agencies, right? And he saw what we were doing. I was sitting down at the time coding something, a big project, and saw the whole thing, right? And again, geography does play a role, but you could meet someone and then you could also be in front of a US Marines project with no team and then you have to figure it out. There's a big gap, right? There's the flip side to that. So you got to be able to scale. That's another thing, right? Like that's the thing a lot of, I think, digital marketing agencies are struggling with of like how to scale their business, right? And so usually what I've seen, at least in search, because that's primarily what we do. I mean, we do web design. We're a full-service agency, but we're known for search. There's a lot of other good SEO people out there, but it's usually one person that knows a bunch of stuff, a ton of clients, and maybe some admins that are helping them, but there's not a really good structure. So they're like, this guy's a genius. If I can just get this

guy to work on my stuff, he's going to take it to the moon. But you're always hoping and trying to get their attention to figure out how to get them to work on stuff. There's actually a couple really big names that I've worked with in SEO and learned from and exchanged information, taught, all that sort of thing. And really what I've heard from some clients is, yeah, he's awesome, but I got to get him into the office. I got to hide all the distractions and get him to focus on it. And then he can do it, whatever I need to get done in like 45 minutes or whatever, but it's just nailing them down. And so when you're able to get people's search rankings at the top of Google, it's very, very powerful, and you got a lot of different people pulling on you. And usually the same person that's doing that is not running the business. There's two different skill sets. There's a book out there called E-Myth. I don't know if y'all heard of it, but it's- By Michael Gerber. Yes. Yeah. So my partner, Chris, actually every person that came in our agency, that was the first book you had to read, right? Because we all have to wear different hats at different times. And it's really important to have someone do the IT and have someone do the accounting and have someone do, and also doing branding for yourself. Branding for yourself is the hardest. We were talking about copywriting earlier. It's really difficult to do that kind of branding for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I mean, I always say that I can write for other people, but I always have a hard time writing about myself. So some of my bios, I actually have other copywriters write for me, and we just swap bios. So I don't know what it is. Well, I've seen it too, that you get paid. You're getting paid to do work for a client. So if you have time to do work for yourself,

you don't normally have that unless it's slow. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Unless it's slow down, can you have time to work on your own stuff? And so if I want stuff done or move the needle or move everything forward, I typically have to go find somebody that I know and trust, you know, some kind of strategic partner or someone in the industry to be like, I know they're good. And I'm like, I will pay you to do this because they're getting paid, so I'm their client, so they'll do it. And then I'll make sure it gets done and I can manage it like I'm the customer. And when you have that knowledge back and forth, you can usually get a lot done. You know what I mean? Right. So Kevin, why don't you tell us a little bit about just overarching when you think about copyright, right? So one of the things we learned at the DAX conference was basically how valuable copywriting is. I think it is really the highest paid industry. If you look at, if you're doing blogs, like what kind of content are you writing? Well, content that sells is always going to be worth the most, right? Yeah. And we've followed some of the same people. There's also been some people that you've educated me that I'm going to check out in the copywriting. But really, if you don't know how to sell or communicate your message, everything else falls after that, right? And even if you know how to sell, can you sell by not doing it? Can you sell out of a different medium? Well, my background, I have some sales in my background, but I learned how to take that sales because it's the same, it's like human psychology. It's the same kind of concept. It's not so much the words, right? It's how to sell them. But why don't you give everyone a little bit of a framework to how should they approach copywriting if they're a first time person and they're building

a sales funnel themselves, or they got a Shopify account, or they're working for a client and they're having to write sales copy. Maybe talk about an email or just pick something and share with us a case study or some information or overview. Yeah. So basically, I mean, there's plenty of templates out there for like sales letters, emails, social media ads. But when you think of copy, I think of it as just salesmanship in print. Like you said, it's just sales, right? And I think a lot of writers, they get stuck on the actual words themselves and how they write. But we're not actually writers. We're not like Stephen King or like JK Rowling, right? So I think about copy as like word architecture. So if you reverse engineer any successful sales letters, one of my mentors I look up to named Joe Sugarman, he says the purpose of the first sentence is to get them to read the second sentence. The purpose of the second sentence is to get them to read the third sentence. So if you like take that, it means that each sentence is put there for a reason. So it's word architecture. So if you try to reverse engineer stuff, you try to see like why is that copywriter putting that sentence there? So it's an actual framework of influence through words. Well, and then also you were kind of talking about the frame of how you kind of speak to people, right? So we're talking about infotainment, we're talking about curiosity. Why do you feel that that's such a powerful hook? Well, I mean, humans by nature are just curious, right? Like we always love novel things. It's just a dopamine hit in our brain. So whenever we present something in the market, it has to sound new. If it's something boring, like how to make money online, that's not going to resonate in today's world, right? Yeah. So okay, so this is super interesting. Okay, this is something I found out, right? So I feel like just when we're

talking about trends in general, okay, everything kind of happens in the UK, maybe comes to New York, goes to California, then get spread out to the rest of the country, right? So y'all might see it a little bit beforehand. Well, what I'm seeing in online marketing specifically is the things that don't work here anymore, okay? Because I did some things for some multimillion dollar earners in the MLM space or whatever. So the things of work from home and be your own boss and all those sort of things used to work like gangbusters in the beginning, but it's been overdone. Well, guess what? As these companies are starting to go to South America, okay, and they're starting to go to less developed countries. Look at Brazil. Those things are working great, okay? And so it's like you know the future. It's information arbitrage, you know? Yeah, totally. I like some of these words. Well, what is it? Word architecture? Yeah. Information arbitrage? I've never heard that. Yeah, what you were just talking about, that's like taking a concept from this book called Breakthrough Advertising by Eugene Schwartz. So he talks about market- That was expensive, I heard. It's worth every dollar. Buy it. So he talks about market sophistication, which is how well does your market know the message, right? And then he talks about market awareness. It's like how well does that person know that product in the marketplace? Is he problem aware? Does he know the product? Does he know there's a solution? So they're in a different phase. Yeah, that's a different phase. So you've got to speak to them differently because they're already aware, I want to be my own boss. I've already explored those paths. So now you've got to go to the conversation they're having in their own head, right? Yeah, so that's why I'm not surprised that it'll work if you take that to a different country because all that stuff has been saturated here in the market. So if they've never heard of it before, you could take

it to them and say, oh, this is the four-hour workweek. They'll be like, whoa, this is cool. Yeah, and why does it happen? You think, oh, information travels pretty much equally at the speed of light. So why are they not able to grasp it at the same time? Well, there's language. So as people are starting to pick up English more often in these countries, now they have access to the same sort of resources. And they're like, oh, you can actually make money online. Let's give it a try. OK, so when I went down this path, so for the two really, really big players in Houston, they actually one started an MLM company, sold it for like $400 million, OK? Yeah, it's insanity. Yeah, he's now in the CBT space. Where's he goes? Where are the buddies at? Other guy was like one of his top, top producers, right? And so one of the things that they talked about was how important it was to understand what was happening with the person and what the customer journey was, right? And so we actually built out their whole funnel, because they were like robots, right? They were saying the whole same thing every five minutes. And I was like, we can take what you're doing and move it online where you can just run them through the funnel and take them on the journey that you want to take them on, OK? And it actually worked really well. We ran some Facebook ads to the front of it and then remarketing to the back end, and then they picked it up on the end and started closing the candidates. But it was really interesting that I learned from them as we were launching in new markets, right? So I was like, I wasn't going to go, that was like going down the affiliate path, like I'm not doing that. But what I saw that was really interesting is people in other countries viewed being, so here it's over-saturated, right? It's at the level that you really got

to do it at a high level because a lot of people have overdone it. It's just like salespeople, right? Salespeople, sales is not inherently bad. You're basically professionally helping someone buy, but sales has gotten like a negative connotation. The pushy car salesman, that stuff won't work anymore. Yeah, but it used to, right? It's like overdone, marketers overdo it. But what's interesting is in other countries, because we're at a different space, a person that's doing multi-level marketing is making a ton of money. Because guess what? The comp payout is the same for the US as the same for over there. So if they're making $2 per week or per day, like Venezuela is always $2 per week, crazy. And then you're an MLM person and you're making $10,000 a month in a country that everybody's making $2 a week. You're like basically, I mean, I don't even know. You live like a king. Yeah, you are a king. So people were viewed so highly, so highly that we're in that industry, and they took it really seriously because they were like the Wall Street people. They're the people that are making so much money, right? And here's something that a lot of people do know about me, but I think it's important to kind of address. When I look at the world today, I think that a lot of money's made or was made in the stock market, right? Like that was a big tap of money that just flowed out. Well, that's been overdone and people figured out, and unless you kind of are in the know, you kind of don't have that. I think the internet today is where maybe the stock market was where all the fortunes were made before, because it's still Wild West. It's only 20 years old, you know what I mean? And it's a giant tap, but it's like crowdsourcing. So basically, this tap's turning on all the money flowing into the economy. Internet marketing's sucking it all up. It's basically what Amazon's doing. Amazon's just sucking up everybody's

work, like because everybody's buying stuff. They're just buying it through Amazon, and Amazon's trying to put themselves from an arbitrage standpoint right in between you and all your wants, needs, desires, and demands, and your money. And they're just the intermediary, and they're taking 20%, 50% cuts on stuff from an affiliate side. It's funny you mentioned that, because you tapped into my favorite blog. It was called the Wall Street Playboys, right? I have it. I have it. Yeah, it's funny, because I don't think- Check that out. Wallstreetplayboys.com. So literally, I'm probably one of the few people that's brave enough to just go and say it, because they're very cutthroat when it comes to ... They're anonymous, but they've grown it to millions of views. There's something called Something Oasis that has a bunch of- Oh, yeah. These guys are even more niche, and for them, there's three career choices right out of college. And thanks God I found them right out of college, because they were like, you're going to go to tech? Okay. Yeah, tech, tech. And that's the top one for them. If not, you're going to go to sales, enterprise sales. Yeah, you got to go enterprise sales, yeah. If not, you're going to go Wall Street. But guess what? Wall Street, they're all Wall Street guys, and they're like, Wall Street doesn't quite work the same way. So it's either mergers and acquisitions, or you go back to the other two. And that's your three choices. And it's funny, because I follow everything and everything they said to do, including whenever there's work, you work. And if you're young in your 20s, you actually can jeopardize a little bit of your health a little bit to get ahead, because you're still ... You know how we get ... No, because a lot of my peers can go out every weekend, right? The same way you can go out every weekend and drink and be fine the next day, you can work 14 hours, 15 hours a day, and be fine as well

in your 20s. So you chose not to drink and work? Yes. Okay. Because I wanted to live a better life. I did both. You did both. You can do both. You can do both. It was tough, though. But I was committed. Yeah, you can find the right balance. I mean, it's not like I don't go out, but it's just like ... You know, for them, it was like there was these three paths that I had to take. Okay, so one of my buddies here, so he works over in the Galleria, which y'all got to go check it out. And it's basically like New York, like Soho, in one of the towers, right? And he's big in the marketing thing, and he's now starting to kind of build his brand online. And he's a little ... He's working with a bunch of models and all this sort of stuff. And what he posted, like a little quote, you know what I mean? And it was a picture of him, and he was like, hey, my buddy said I'll see you at the bar or something like that. And then he's like, I'll see you at the bank or something. And it was basically somehow like you got a sacrifice, right? Yeah, a little bit, yeah. Going out to ... Or like, hey, we missed you on Saturday at the bar. And he's like, hey, I missed you on Saturday at the bank. Don't get me wrong. The Wall Street Playboys, they tell you to go out every Thursday and Saturday, but you must be able to wake up the next day. And be productive. Yes, you can go out, but you must be able to wake up the next day. That's the rule. So that's how- Well, they sleep on the couch. There's this program called Ags on Wall Street, okay? And basically they were like, you're going to make $24,000 a year in New York, okay? For three years, you're going to share a five bedroom or two bedroom apartment with five guys. And you're

probably going to shower and sleep on the couch at work, and you're going to work 23 hours out of the day. And I was just like, man, I'm not looking forward to that. I was like, I'm not looking forward to that. Yeah, that's crazy. But basically the rule is, you know, you do one of those things, right? It's true. You build a skill. You build a skill. A high income skill, right? Okay, yeah. And he knows about that even better than I do. But you build a high income skill, right? Yeah. And you leverage that skill, whether it's a freelancer, eventually an agency, right? And you, at some point, start thinking about the product. So you get good at one thing- Yeah, but at some point- And then you productize it. And then you either productize that or you start, at the same time, moving to the product. Yeah. Because the product can work, you don't have to, you work it and it works for you afterwards. So that's what I think a lot of people are realizing, right? Is like, they're trying to grow a business and they're offering their service and it's still an exchange of time for their knowledge. And maybe they're not charging as much as they should be for their skill sets, right? Yeah, they're not. And so I think that that's one of the big things is kind of, you got to value yourself properly and really got to look at what it produces. I'll give you an example, okay? So I just, I brought on a client in the last five months or something like that. It started out, basically, we're doing an audit. We do paid audits with clients that came in and they want to rank for a particular keyword. And I'll tell you, it's plumber. Well, no, actually they came in for PPC. Okay. They wanted us to audit their PPC. So I was auditing the PPC, but I was also like, let's look at your SEO too, right? Because I started in PPC and

certified all that. And we managed about a quarter million a month in PPC. But I was like, let's look at your SEO because I've seen in campaigns 32X return on investment with SEO. 32X. Combined with PPC? No. Sole, just sole. Because look, you're looking at, PPC is a one for one dollar exchange. And then maybe it's a little bit less because you got to pay a management fee, right? If you're a company or whatever, you don't know how to do it. Well, Google's getting expensive. It's easy to buy ads and it's got to be relevant to rank or whatever, but SEO is harder. There's 250 something different ranking factors, all these sort of things. But so people are going to go to PPC first, let's just throw money at it, right? Well, when that number gets out of whack, you got to do something different, right? And also too, if you go into like SEM rush or something, they calculate dollar per click based on your position, how many clicks you average get, and then it comes up with a value for your website. So if you were to buy and sell a website, you want to look at what that number is. Well, this search had 2,900 searches in Houston. Keyword difficulty was under 60, so it was easy or low or whatever. It's not, nothing's easy, but it was in the lower demographic and they were position seven or no, position five. They're position five. And basically they came to me and they said, I like, so we went through two hours of stuff and they're like, what's your summary? And I was like, well, I can write it up for you, but I can give it to you right now if you want it. I was like, cause I didn't want to like write it up. So I just wanted to tell it to them or whatever, because people were starting to expect papers. So we do these workshops, have to do workshops. So we type everything up and that takes a

long time. But so this was like a shorter consult session. I was like, you need to rank number one for Plummer Houston. And they were like, we already knew that. And they also had their marketing guy in the room. Okay. Which I didn't know it. So I'm basically like, you know, educating, but that's what this is. Right. So who cares? And so they were like, we already knew that. And I was like, then why aren't you doing that? Everything you should be doing should be ranking this keyword. If this is the business intent, this keyword is worth like $29 a click or something like that. I was like, this is the thing that's going to move the needle the most. And they're like, what is it going to take to do it? And the owner is in the room. And I was like, and they just like put me on the spot. And I was just like, and I was, I've done two hours of analysis. So I kind of had in my head what I think I could do. And I was just like, I'll do it for five grand money back. And, and then, or I don't know if they said it or I said, I probably didn't say it, but they were like money back guarantee. And I was like, sure, whatever. Yeah. And like, right. And I'm like, I'm, I'm really fairly confident that like, I can, I can hit a home run in this. And I was like, all right, so I'll do it in 90 days or less. And then basically. And so there's some sites out there that do this sort of thing, but they're not very good. It's like rank pay or something, something like that, where they try to say you only pay for results. But basically I said, okay, if I get you in the fourth position, I'll give you set in 90 days or less, I'll get you 75% of your money back. And then if I get you in third position, I'll give

you 50% of your money back. Cause I did work and I moved the needle and also each needle, each spot you move up, you get significantly more traffic, which translates into more business. And then second position, it was like 25% I get you in first position. You know, I don't, or first position, I'll give you anything. And I said, also, I can't guarantee how long you're going to stick in this first position for, because now we got dwell time. We got, you know, do they take any action? Like the website, you know, needed a little bit of work in my opinion. You know? So I was just, I can't promise how long it's going to stick. You know what I mean? 62 days, first position stuck there for three weeks. Okay. Right. So they became a monthly client after that. I mean, basically we hit the trust factor immediately. Right. They're like, Oh my gosh, what else can you do for us? And so, so that actually really worked out very, very quickly. So I looked at what that website's worth. Okay. And in Google, Google or SEMR, sorry, $80,000 a month in Google ads spent $80,000 a month. They're not paying me. So they're profitable there. Yeah. So, so, so what I should have done, what I should have done, and I'm kind of like thinking about this because really like you're working with some of these really big brands. I have a few publicly traded companies, but not like all publicly traded companies like you. And, you know, we should talk about some search stuff, but you know, but, but the thing is that's really, really valuable to the company. And I'm outranking some big players. I'm outranking people that have billboards around Houston. Like no one knows who this company is. It's crazy. And they're just crushing it. Like they love us. Like they're crushing it. Of course, $80,000 a month in traffic multiplied over 12 months. Okay. And they're, they're spending under five grand with us. Okay. It's like that, that

value proposition is massive. Okay. And the thing is what I should have done, like just thinking from an internet marketer standpoint, right. Is like, Hey, I'll do it at risk, at my risk. But if I do it, I want whatever the, this number, if it's 80, I want, what is the management fee? Like most companies charge for PPC, 15%, 20%. So I'll take 20% of that. And then it becomes a fair, a fair arrangement, right. Because they're just, and, and, and they've been able to increase their price point of their products because they have so much demand, right. And they have so much time. So if you have the demand, you can raise your prices. Right. That's true. Yeah. So, so that, I don't know. So that, that's some of the kind of struggles that, that, that, that I know we're going through. We've like product tie services, like, you know, you kind of talked about, you know, really we're, we're looking at making our, you know, like we do a lot of blogs. We write a lot of pieces of content on page, downloadables, little eBooks, all kinds of stuff that helps for SEO, but it's not direct, direct response. Now, you know, we do do email drips and we have pretty good open rights to drive it, but there's, there's, there's not as much as you have the fundamentals of like, well, how much did this make? Like, why don't you, why don't you just for everybody, I think it'd be cool to tell if you don't mind, if you can, the story with Ty about how you got to working with them and then like some of what some of the campaigns, because I think it's just the cool story. Yeah. So basically back in December, uh, my startups failed. I learned copywriting just to, for my offers and my startups, uh, Andre's worked in one of them with me. So he knew how it was. So basically I was like, well, back then I was doing everything. I was doing the

PVC, I was doing Facebook ads. I was trying to learn SEO and like web design and all that. Cause we all had to wear different hats for startups. So I was like, I'm just going to focus down on what I think my strongest skill is. And I thought that was copywriting. Cause I spent a really long time learning it. And I was like, I'm going to try to write for clients. So the first few people I tried to reach out to, I wanted to do for free. Cause you know, I was untested. I didn't know whether or not anything I was doing was completely right or not. So then I saw that Ty was hiring in New York and I reached out to his team and they messaged me back. They're like, Hey, come to New York for two days. We'll get you a hotel room and we can do a work sample. So I get there and he was like, all right, everyone is going to cold call. I was like, Oh, this is a copyright. I was like, I don't know about this. I've never sold anything over the phone before, but I was like, all right, whatever. So I made 60 calls the first day and on the 61st call, I finally closed someone on a course. And I was like, yes, I can sell over the phone now. So I went to bed, my soul was crushed after making all those calls. The next day I showed up in the first half hour, I sold like 1500. I was off to a hot start. And then I talked to him about copywriting. He's like, yeah, I'm just looking at higher salespeople. He's like, but we'll reach out if it's a good fit. So you applied for a copywriting job and he said, come on anyway, and he puts you in a sales role. Didn't you get into a little argument with Tai about copywriting versus sales? No, no, no. So I asked him, he said introverts make the best salespeople, but

introverts that adapt, right? So like kind of more of an ambivert. And I was like, Oh, I mean, that's interesting because I feel like charismatic people, extroverted people make the best salespeople. And I was like, so what is your stance on copywriting? He's like, Oh, it's the same thing. It's just salesmanship and print, which I fully agree with. So after that, when I left New York, two weeks later, his team reached out to me and he was like, do you want to write us one email? And I was like, one email? Well, that's not really testing what I could do. I'll write you an entire sequence. And after I did that, they called me back to New York to continue working with his team for like a week or so. And I didn't know what the numbers were, but I got someone to show me the numbers of what I've done within the two promotions, three emails, and it generated like close to six figures. And I was like, Whoa, I can do this. That was more than cold call. Yeah, that was a lot better than cold call. It was automatic. Yeah. So after that, I kind of grew more confidence in what I could do. So I just leveraged that to grab more people in the info product space. But now I'm kind of transitioning more to health. I think there's a huge opportunity for there. And, you know, I studied pharmacy in school before I left that field completely. So health is just natural to me. So yeah, a little bit of a plug here for a little bit. Yeah, that's the bobblehead of Chris. But, you know, it looks like y'all are going to be doing some stuff with Chris's other company. Yeah. That should be exciting. Yeah. You know, have had you in the studio and talking to some of our team. We got like an SEO team, we got a PPC or a conversion click team internally kind of head to head. You've been spending some time with them.

You've been spending some time with the copywriters. And really here at UWeb Results, we're always trying to up our game too. And so it's going to be exciting. I think we're going to share so much data. It's going to be interesting. Yeah, interesting. And really, I mean, that's what marketing has become, right? Data analysis, like more than anything else, right? It's like what people do. If your audience want, you know, Kevin and I spoke about it. We're going to probably secretly document a lot of the stuff that's going on. And depending on... That's not so secret. It's secret that it's not going to go out every day and it's not going to go out every month, but it's going to be documented at some point. A private secret. If we decide it will actually, you know, go out. So what we realized is like some of the stuff on ClickBank, it's basically people taking free information and organizing it. Yes. So I know this credit offer that did, he basically, his credit score is bad and this guy pretty much took free resources and packaged it in a book. Yeah. And he started selling it at 20 bucks. And when he started focusing on it, he started doing like six figures a month and then he ran an infomercial on it. Yeah. And then he actually started doing five to six million a month and he actually sold it the company recently after they'd done 50 million in sales. But basically it all came off the back of just gathering free resources that got results and packaging it up. Yeah. No. And really what you're talking about the dopamine, right? That's why Google... Google is just doing what visitors do. So like ordered lists, like people feel like, oh, I got an ordered list. That's why all the downloadables are ordered lists. Because it's like, you get that shot of dopamine, right? And you're like, I have all the information I ever need. Yeah. Right. In this ordered list or whatever. That's interesting because you

said something fascinating with most info products, right? Because if you ever produced any info products, you realize that there's a decent... You have to work on like getting people to consume it. There's like a 20% that consumes it all and then there's 80% that... Utilizing it. Yeah. Utilization. Execution is almost nothing, right? Like you just buy it and then it just sits on the shelf because you're busy with other stuff. I listened to Jay Abraham and Jordan Belfort in their podcast. Yeah. I love his new podcast. Jay described sort of why that happens as insurance. So 80% of the people buying that see that organization of information and that availability of information as insurance. If they decide to go that way. If they ever need it, it's organized and packaged and it's there for them. Well, you know, the thing that got me into info products was it was actually a Facebook ad. And like, so really the big thing that's driven me is a computer and a phone and work anywhere in the world. Like that was basically when I was graduating from school, what I wanted. Biz-ups. Yeah. And what they did is they took a bunch of people that were like bloggers and all kinds of stuff, like all these different things, travel agents and all this stuff. And they basically all wrote like a chapter or whatever. And then it was like 16 of the people that, and then they were showing pictures and the video was like, you know, working on a beach, like in a little shop with wifi and all this kind of stuff. And so I bought that. It was like 500 bucks, man. And then they did the upsells and I bought it all. I was like, I got this course. And I was like, I'm going to do this. And then like, I never like set a deadline. And then just, I got busy with life or like I had another job or whatever. And I knew that until I fully really committed and I

created deadlines and to do's and everything, like I wasn't going to execute on it. Right. And, but it was there, but I was like, that's awesome. You know what I mean? Like, and that opportunity and it was, that's what it was. It was insurance, right? It was insurance. You know, but I'm, I'm big on taking action, right? Like I'm, I'm really big on taking action and really the biggest thing I walked away from, from the conference we went to is like, Hey, LinkedIn, right? LinkedIn's where you need to be. Since we've been back, you know, it's been about 30 days. Dude, I've posted multiple times on LinkedIn. I've been testing out the algorithm as we were kind of talking about earlier. And I just applied for the LinkedIn beta. Like I was like, that's my goal, right? My goal is to get to LinkedIn beta. And then I got a really big microphone, right? And, and the algorithm changed with Facebook like last March. And, and so that's, so that's, and then TikTok, right? I'm not doing anything on TikTok, but I'm focused on one thing with a goal and I'm working that plan and doing that. And that's, that's really what I'm big about. And that's what we look for in people we hire and partners that we build is, Hey, like, like let's set a plan. Let's set some milestones and let's knock it out. And let's move the ball down the court and get it done for clients, for ourselves, you know, that sort of thing. And so, you know, if I was ever to do an info product, you know, like you really got a vet, like, because if they take the information and they don't do anything with it, they're going to say it's your fault. Yeah. Right. And that's when you get creative, you know, I think not many of them leverage like interactions, like making it interactive getting people to actually, cause it takes more money, right? I mean, if you're going to make an interactive software, right.

It's more expensive, but guess what? It gets people. Well, also like those people that would sell real estate, right. They're like, you know, buy a house with other people's money. They always push so hard to do the coaching piece, right. And I thought they were just pushing for more money, but I think they were pushing the coaching piece because they actually wanted it to work for you. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. You need it, you know, and, um, or else you end up with that gap and, you know, people become insanely rich, you know, out of that 20% that actually, you know, because those become the testimonials, right. Those are like, oh, it actually does work, you know? And yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I, I think that a lot of people would want to learn how to work with big brands. Okay. I mean, you're, you're working, can you, can you mention any names? Yeah. All of them. Yeah. And a lot of it comes from agencies that we work with, right. Um, big in the WPP network. So because of that, we ended up working with like four Lincoln Colgate, Home Depot. Um, how many of you want to work with some of those companies? And, you know, it's kind of sweet working with people that are trying to spend the money, you know, they're, they have a budget. It's different. It's like, it's not, it's not like, where's all the money going. It's like, we got to blow our year. We're going to lose half our department, right? Yeah. Like those are the kinds of clients you want. And, um, I think that we've all, we already mentioned most of this stuff that, because it's all, we use direct response to get in the door of these companies. Sure. Right. You got to get them to take action. You got to, you got to hit the pain points, right? You got to hit the pain points. You got to get them to take action. You have to really big, you have

to be really big into risk reversal with them because they work with some company or contractor and they've been working with them for a while. Right. Yeah. But a lot of them actually have hesitations with them. Like they're like, ah, I've been working with them. They're mediocre, but it helps me, you know, it gets the job done. Right. Yeah. Well, it's hard to switch, right? There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a change cost, right? Like when you have a legacy system and you're like having to convert to something new, you know, or to move buildings or to move house. That's why people stay in houses so long. It's like, they don't want to move. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, you take something in our case, you know, we're, we're an interactive web development agency, so we take the smallest piece we can, which is an interactive banner. And we're like, Hey, we'll, we'll do you. And this was Kevin's invention, by the way. And, you know, it was like, we'll do it. We'll do it for free. You know, we'll do your set for free. And they're like, are you guys insane? Like it's a couple of grand. I'm like, yeah, we'll do it. We'll do it for free. And once we finished that first set and like, what do you think, you know, we have a customer. You got over the trust bar and you proved that you can deliver. It was your customer experience and they're happy. And obviously you're happy. So do you have any more work? Um, they're like, yeah, yeah, we have, you know, three more now. Um, and from there, like, okay, so, you know, we, we, we, we're, we're pretty good on the web stuff. That website of yours could use some help. Yeah. No, I would love to, to, to talk about this all day. I think it's, I think it's really interesting. I mean, you know, we're working with the publicly traded company down to the pressure washer around the corner. Right. And everyone in between.

Um, I can, I can tell you, we have a similar kind of risk reversal where, you know, really, you know, asking someone to spend a couple thousand dollars, um, you know, and they just met you, that's tough. Right. So you need to spend more time with them. Right. And you need to provide more value to them. Well, how do you get access to just their time? Because attention is so valuable. Right. So you got to give something away of value. Well, strategy execution can be done if you build the right team or the processor system. Right. But the strategy, if the strategy is wrong or the execution, you got to have both. Right. You need both. You have needed both. And how do you know if you get the right strategy? You want to go to an expert that you trust to get that expertise. That's what I talk about in the book, you know, trusted advisor. Like it's really important for people to trust who you are. Yeah. Well, people, people, you know, and also think about this. Okay. You, you spend, okay. So, you know, I think we'll work together, but so say we go head to head. Right. With a client. Right. You spent 30 minutes, hour, two hours on your sales pitch, whatever. Okay. And this is what Dan Kenny says. Whoever can spend the most money to acquire a client wins. Yeah. A little negative, but yeah. Yeah. But guess what? So I like what you're doing. Don't get me wrong. I'm actually thinking about in my head how, how we might be able to implement something like that. But what I've done is I've said, hey, let's, so, so mine is like, hey, why don't we date before we get married? Let's like get to know each other. Yeah. You know, but Hey, I got to pay for my time too, because if you don't set these hard jet deadlines or kind of gate what's going on, you could have 20 meetings and get nowhere. Right. So it's like,

there's got to be like a process. Well, you know, I can spend the time with a paid client. Right. But I need to know you're serious. I need to know you're not a tire kicker and I'm going to give you insane amount of value. Now, look, if you want value, listen to the podcast, check out the book, but if you want one-on-one, like I only have so much time in the day, like I gotta, I gotta protect my time. Right. And so I said, but if you want to buy a little bit of my time, see what it's like, test it out and then see if you want more. But now think about that in a whole different context. So I'm, I'm going up against clients or other agencies for, for work. Right. That has spent 30 minutes with them or hour. I'm spending two hours with them and I'm getting paid plus maybe another 30 minutes or an hour or whatever. So now I've spent more time. So the no, the like, right, the trust, I can, I can build that and I can show that and they get, they get visibility into what we're doing and what the strategy is. And if they don't like the strategy, you know what? Give your money back. Yeah. Like if you think I'm full of hot air. Exactly. I'll give you your money back, but I just want to know you're serious. So I want you to put money down and we'll put it towards whatever, but guess what? If you're unhappy and here's the thing, that's crazy. And we're changing this for some of you, if you're listening, know who you are. So people have called in. Okay. One was this parasailing client. I don't remember the name of the company. So, and I'm not hating on it, right? Okay. I am hating on it. I'm totally hating on it. I'm hating on this. I don't remember who this guy was. So this was when we first started about a year and a half doing

the prop plan. So, so we, it was, we started like 500 bucks. Now it's like 600 bucks. Now we actually have a marketing workshop, like 1500 bucks. Right. And, and that could go up too, because it's, it's all about the value exchange, right? And like, you know, we're now building out deliverables and all this kind of stuff. It's, it's really getting pretty, pretty slick on and, and clients really, really like it. Cause if you don't have that target persona, if you don't have the buyer's journey going into it you're just guessing, right? And you've got to do that stuff anyway. So let's do it in chunks and let's do it in an easily consumable format. But this guy came back a year later after leaving us a positive review and said, I want my money back. I was like, it's been a year. Like, like, like there's got to be some, there's like, but guess what? I didn't put, I didn't put on the, the, the thing like, you know, only good for whatever. And, and so, you know what I did? And he goes, I'll leave you bad reviews and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, dude, like you were happy. You're just needing money now and you're coming to dig on me and you're threatening me with bad reviews. And I was like, you know what? You clearly need the money more than I do. And so like, whatever helps you sleep at night, dude, here's your money back. And we've done that like three times, but that's the thing. There's going to be some bad actors and everybody's dealt with like bad actors, bad clients. But the thing is the, the wins that came out of it, the clients that- Can you talk about the ratio between those, those give, give your money back versus how many clients thanks to that strategy. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it way out seeds it, you know what I mean? And, and so, you know, I, I believe, and if you hear a lot

of kind of people talking in the online marketing space or, or info product space, you've got to just, you've got to just give, give your best stuff away. Like we give it all away. Like people know what we do and how we do it. It's completely transparent. It's not like black box for SEO and people trust that. And I think a lot of people don't have time to do it, or they want to run their own business. And so they're like, I know what you're doing, or I trust that. I know, think you know what you're doing and I, and I'm seeing stuff and it's working. And I want to run the business that I started running. I didn't go into this to become an internet marketer. Cause a lot of, you almost have to start to become an internet marketer today with like lead gen online. I mean, if you're not selling it, you're being sold. Yeah. Yeah. And another thing about risk reversal too, especially with info products, I read the best risk reversal I've ever seen was this guy who had a webinar for a list building product and his risk reversal was, if you finish this course and do everything in 12 months, you have a year, I'll give you all your money back. So I've actually read it. So they make a track and a whiskey or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So like, no doubt that that helped him get sales, but I recently read like an updated, he posted like an updated- But that works for people, right? You know, like the people that did it. Yeah. I read like an updated post by him and he ended up giving back $1.4 million of like refunds of people who finished the course and took them up on that guarantee. I don't know, but he actually, he actually went through like kind of a health crisis in the middle. So he was siphoning out like $70,000 a month with these refunds while making no income. Cause he couldn't work.

Well, I don't know. I think if you can do things to help people grow, like they're going to appreciate it and they're going to reciprocate in kind, cause that's all we're talking about is reciprocation. Like, hey, I'm going to give you value or help you and then reciprocate back. I know we've talked about that quite a bit since we've gotten to know each other. I think that what I've seen is there's a lot of people in the digital marketing space that, you know, are trying to kind of break through where they're at. They're trying to add team. There's like, you got to productize services. You got to build systems. You got to learn all these different components. I think it would be really interesting if we, you know, I don't know, like, so I got a couple of guys that built some pretty amazing info products and weight loss. Okay. And like for some pretty big names out there and we, and we really are a digital agency, right? That's like a core product. We've added kind of consulting piece to it, but you know, we're, we're, we're, we're at in videography and we're, we're actually going to build like a online media channel. That's kind of really one of the directions we're taking the company, but that, that goes into infomercials and info products, right? So like infomercial, like sponsorships. So, you know, SEM Rush wanted to sponsor a podcast not too long ago. And like, like, so there's like, there's a whole component of like internet marketing and affiliate market that we haven't really tapped into. And really we started to see with Chris's business and, and some of the people we hired with affiliate marketing background and, you know, pushing stuff out there. And, and, and we've really built out some funnels. We built funnels for a guy that's on stage with Robert Kiyosaki. I know y'all were looking at that earlier. And, and so, so I think next year we're, we're really going to move into that. And I think one

of the things that a lot of people want to know is like, how do I scale my business? How do I grow my business? You know, how do I build that? And, and what are the key components? Like, how do I work with big brands? How, how do I write emails that people are going to get back to me? How do I hire people? You know, how do, how do I build a productized service that works, that's scalable, right? All these things that I think a lot of people are asking for. And we've been kind of talking about it and I just, you know, I don't want to put y'all on the spot or anything like that, but, you know I don't know, I feel like we should, we should, we should do a mastermind. Like, I feel like, I think that, you know, a lot of people would get benefit. You've seen the place for putting the new glass doors. We've got all these conference rooms. It's like really a nice setup. We've got a huge room over here. You know, and we're, we're, we're, we're growing pretty aggressively and, and really the, the, the, the agency's doing quite well. We've got a lot of good testimonials out there. Ivan, we appreciate all the video testimonials. We go in and shoot a video for them. We're like, Hey, you want to do a video testimonial for us? And so, so we've been building kind of that, that, that literature up. And there's a lot of people that are internet marketers out there that I think want to know this stuff. I mean, I know, you know, I would love to have a lot of big brands that we work with. I mean, we, we run the gamut and I, I love helping people, but also it takes a lot of time sometimes to educate people that, that don't totally understand how it works. So a lot of people are like, how, like the data's wrong and then we got to show them how to

use data. And I like doing that. And I think that's, but that should be the focus, right? So if you buy agency work, it should be deliver agency services. And I like providing education, but education separate than agency services. Right. And so we really need to build out instructors and courses and provide that education component on the front end. Right. And so you move through it. I mean, that's the whole reason I wrote that book. There's a lot of people. Yeah. No, you like it, right? Tell me, tell me your thoughts on the book. You know, I mean, you've read like half of it in like one night. That was crazy. It's like a few hours and we already had a few drinks with Chris too. So I, I, I looked at it and it pretty much has like everything you kind of need, you know? So it's for me, like I'm kind of like Kevin's student, you know? So he's he, he needed to, he's getting a lot of copywriting work and he's like, Oh, I'm going to have to train someone else. I want to, but, and then that, that happened to be me. So like, uh, it happened. I was like, Oh, this actually, if anyone's starting out, you know, like a very newbie guy and let's like, go from that to like, okay, now I know what to execute. This is the next step. Right. Or take about, take on a client on risk reversal to test your skills up. Yeah. You know, I think this is it. No, I mean, I think why I wrote that was like, so, so Chris had been doing the podcast for 10 years. Okay. So we got 400 and this is probably 466, 67 episodes, right? All, you know, tons of great content. Right. And, and really, um, you know, Google's continuing to change. And so, so you've got to always stay on your toes, but that podcast is for hardcore people, SEO, internet marketers, how to set up email drips, automations, all that

sort of thing. This is like, Hey, I want to get into it. Like I want to understand, I want to, how do I build that? Like, I don't even understand like a compass or a framework to get started. So this is, and also to, to, to hire me one-on-one, cause there's only so much time a day to do consulting. I was like, let me put it in a book and like read the book. And then like, you know, and if you're a business, like a small business, right. Like, and you say like, there's internet marketing stuff, there's online marketing stuff that doesn't work for me. I'm sorry, but you're going to be dead soon. So get, Oh, you're going to, you're going to be behind. So we do a lot of home service. We do a lot of professional service. If your name's in the title, it doesn't matter what you do. If you're not there, you're going to be out and you need to start. I think the gaps started to widen between like, because the big brands are starting to come in, they're starting to spend tons of money on a monthly basis. And so you got to get on the big brand side or you got to start building your footprint, your, your audience today, because it's, it's starting to get a little crowded. I see it every month, you know, and going back to that mastermind idea, I think, I think that's the right way to do it. You know, I mean, we're down. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of people out there that can execute. They're skillful and they could do stuff, but teaching is another skill in its own. Like, I'm going to be honest. I'm not, I could write copy, but I'm not very good at teaching it. And that's something I'm learning by having Andres as my guinea pig. Well, that's how you learn. I feel like when you can teach it, that's when you really, really know it. You know what I mean? Right. And

you've been able to scale an agency and actually write a book on branding. So it just shows that you've been able to teach it. You know how to teach it. So I think a lot of people can organize the information. Yeah. You can organize the information. That's a valuable skill too. So I feel like a lot of people can get benefit learning from you in person, right? Cause you've done it. You've scaled this agency from what nine to 60 some clients in a short period amount of time. Right. And there's not, there's a lot of people out there teaching on a starting agency, but where do you go from there? Yeah. Once you understand a little bit about internet marketing, how do you grow it? How do you scale it? I mean, there are certain key skill sets that you need, you know, and also different strategies. And really for me, what it is going back to what you said is like, uh, I kind of the beginning of this podcast was, you know, really how I started is like, I found good information and I just followed it textbook. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, and also when I started my last company that, that I exited successfully, um, there was like a, it was like written in the fifties, like old school manual, right? Like, just like these good marketing books. So you just read it and you're like that headline will still work. Or if I tweak it, but I basically just did what the textbook said and it worked. And if you apply that to it and, and, and that's really what I've seen with internet marketing is when I've found good people, I've dived into it. I've read YouTube Academy taught me almost everything I know. And then, and then the next step was applying it against client data and seeing how that worked. And now that we have such a broad breadth of, uh, different clients across the board, it's really about the methodology. And then there's little

nuances, but it works. And so, you know, I know exactly how we're going to grow from here, where we're going to go, what that roadmap looks like, how we're going to build that. And also we're moving towards higher end brands. And so we're going to need strategic partners. And so if I'm going to refer someone business, I want to know that they do it the way that I think is supposed to be done. And then I can confidently go, Hey, you need to go talk to Joe over here because Joe does internet marketing the way I believe it or in the methodology I have. So kind of looking for like certified partners in that aspect of it. I got another guy here locally, um, that is moving into software and he's built all these awesome SEO tools. He has a really good sized agency and we're kind of like two porcupines like talking, you know, and, um, seeing how that's going to go. But, but there's a lot of big things. I mean, we really, uh, I know you can't, can't see watching this podcast, but you can see maybe on, on LinkedIn or on Facebook, some of the pictures we've been pushing out of some of the changes that, that we're making and how we're growing. I mean, we just, we have this great facility and I was just like, man, we got a glass of all the walls. Like we got to like take it. I saw one of Frank Kern's videos and I was like, man, that office looks way nicer. I was like, I mean, not to say this office is not nice, but I was like, no, it needs to be all glass. And so, so, so there, so these are classroom settings. Like I think we could structure a workshop pretty easily with some of the people we know we could bring in some speakers and just do like, like not do some crazy conference, but people that are really serious, really serious that, that, you know, been, been

doing it for a while and they maybe hit a roadblock, know what a $2,500 or $5,000 client's worth to them and how quickly like five or 10 grand would, would pay off. Like if someone just shows you how to do it, like it's totally worth it. And then we can do like case studies and stuff. I don't know. And the beauty of it is like, you know, a good student, a good student will look at this book, follow it step-by-step and do exactly what it is there. And you'll be, you know, modern successful, right? Yeah. But imagine being a great student, you know, but a great student will look at this book, read it and add to it. Right. And that's like, I think the purpose of any mastermind, right. You don't come in, you don't come in for a conference. You don't go in for that. You come into like the host, like let's say we hosted, we have to be influenced by the people there too. And we'll learn, you know, from them and whatever we know. Because you all go to masterminds all the time. Exactly. Yeah. Whatever we know now, you know, we'll learn something completely new and that could change the game for us and everyone else. I mean, one client, what is one big client worth, right? One idea, you know, like how to acquire a client from a different industry that you don't even know. And they're like, oh, wow, let me try that. And then boom. Yeah. It pays for itself plus a huge multiple. Right. So it's a, it's a, everyone's, it's a, it's a network of value, you know. Well, you know, you know, when we push out this podcast, I like, yeah, you web results, you know, forward slash dot com forward slash mastermind or something like that. Yeah. We'll put, we'll put something together. And, you know, if, if you're listening to this, you know, check back, but we're, well, I guess we'll just throw up like a, you know, a holder page.

If you're interested, you can give us an email address and, and, uh, well, you know, so I have, I have a baby coming in like January, so we would have to like push this out to, you know, mid next year or something, but, but I'm down, dude, I'm down. I'd love to have y'all back. Thanks for coming down. We came to a podcast and now we're in a mastermind. It's just, that's the beauty of this industry. I love it so much because we're just like, are just like doing stuff that's fun, man. And like helping people and, and then, and then the by-product of adding value for people is making money, you know, it's, it's awesome. Well, awesome. Is there anything else you want to share or anything else you want to say before we get out of here? Uh, no, a final word of wisdom. I don't know. Yeah, I guess like, I think a lot of people get stuck on consuming information and stuff like that, but the best way to really grow is to consume a piece of information, but don't move on until you take action on it. Right. That's, that's the fastest way I've learned to get to where I am in less than a year. Yeah, that's true. And every time you can add human interaction to anything, it'll probably succeed more. You gotta remember you're dealing with people, even the internet is like a one-on-one. If somebody collaborates, whether it's your service, like figure out, you know, it's done for you, but sometimes when you, you add a little bit of done with you to it, a little twist to that, people appreciate what's going on more behind the scenes, you know, and they feel like they did it themselves too. So it's, everyone feels good, you know? I love that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you, man. Well, have you been