LLM Visibility For Modern Brands

Welcome And The Rebrand

0:01Audi, welcome back to another funfold episode of the unknown secrets of internet marketing. We're rebranding as the best SEO podcast because, well, that's what our all our domains are. So you can find us on bestseopodcast.com, best seopodcast on all the different handles. Uh, we've been doing this a long time. I think we're celebrating uh like over a thousand episodes. So uh one of the things that we're doing is we're interviewing SEOs from around the world to uh kind of get the perspective of what's going on in their area, how they're viewing things, uh, how they're tapping into it. So I have Liore with Mo Burst from Israel, uh, and uh got referred to us. And so I'm excited to kind of jump into the conversation of what you're doing. You've worked with some really big brands. Um, and so would love to kind of have you set the table, uh, introduce yourself, and uh we can get into the conversation around GEO, AEO, SEO, etc., right?

1:05Awesome.

Moburst Origins And ASO Rise

1:06Uh so uh pleasure to be here. Um, so as mentioned, uh I'm uh one of the co-founders of uh Moburst. Uh I'm especially excited to be here because I started off my career as an SEO uh probably what 16, 17 years ago. Um so uh um yeah, been a long uh uh road since. Um uh on Moburst, uh so we're um we started off as a mobile uh marketing agency back in uh 2013. Uh we kind of introduced or was one of were one of the first agencies to do ASO, App Store optimization, uh which uh you know was very novel and exciting at the time. So figure out how to get apps to rank higher on the App Store, get them to convert whoever got to the app to actually convert. Um and uh and over the year expanded to being uh kind of full service, still mobile first, but full service uh digital agency, acquired a bunch of other agencies. Uh, we've done six uh MA acquisitions to date. Um and today we do lots of things. We have uh 30 different services, but one of the things that we're most excited about uh is that as we uh were kind of integrating and and uh uh working on uh uh giving that integrated approach to our clients, we realized that hey, like the the AEO, geo uh is this new phenomena uh which actually touches uh the entirety of uh of a brand's uh um digital footprint. So it's not just SEO, it's not just PR, it's not just podcasting, it's it's all all of that and and and then some more. Uh so we we kind of uh said, okay, let's put all of our tools uh uh at our disposal and and and kind of created a new a new brand, uh which we call Answerburst, uh, specifically for this. So uh uh that's kind of in a nutshell uh my journey and Mobris' journey, and excited uh to speak through this today.

3:10I love that. So let's talk about something that I personally have no experience with. Okay, so guys, like I don't know everything. If you're

How Apps Actually Rank

3:20listening, I haven't done everything. Ranking apps is not something that is our specialty, it's not something that's my specialty, it's where you got started. I would love for you. I don't think on any episodes I can recall, maybe we've touched it here and there. I would love to start out there just for a personal interest. And if anybody's out there uh that does have an app, um, it's quite important to get visibility. I think the the visibility piece for everything, LOM visibility across the board is becoming exceedingly important because you could have the best product or SaaS or tool or whatever, but if no one sees it, um then and the ranking recommendations don't recommend it, you're not gonna get exposure. And so it really comes down to kind of showing up in the recommended options, uh bubbling up at the top when people are searching for it. Like there's there's different tactics that I think you need to use, and it's really, really important uh to do that.

4:22Yeah, 100%. Um, so I think the first thing, especially for uh folks that come from an SEO background, which is important to understand that unlike SEO, which is kind of SEO and PPC are uh related but do not directly uh um uh affect one another. Um, with uh uh ASO, uh it doesn't live in a vacuum because the the one of the uh one of the main um ranking factors uh factors of uh of apps, one is the historic um historic amount of downloads. So if you're an app with you know 500 million downloads, you'll probably outrank smaller competitors, but the other is download velocity.

5:08Um so uh like reviews, like reviews are also probably weighing into yeah, and then reviews.

5:14So the app stores look at how many how many uh um uh downloads you had in the next in the last 24, 48 hours. There are some nuances between the app store and Google Play. Uh uh, but essentially we'll take that, and I'm saying that because uh to the folks that just launch an app and expect people to find them, uh uh it would be very difficult to gain unless you know your uh app is a one-hit wonder, which there rarely are, uh it most likely you won't be visible. So ASO has to come at least initially with some uh matter of paid, be it paid marketing, PPC, uh, Apple search ads, influencer marketing. So some element to to kind of uh induce that uh download velocity. Uh otherwise you'll start from scratch. So that's I think one thing to uh that you know is is uh uh maybe not an ASO tip, but just to understand that uh downloads do not come uh without any any other downloads.

Paid Traffic As A Ranking Signal

6:12So the two things I'm hearing is one, if you build it, they may not come because they don't know about you. Um and and then the other is which this has been a long time debated, and I was even having a debate with my AI about this recently, uh, or one of them, is paid ads and SEO don't directly influence each other. Okay, they don't, and I understand that, and they're two different teams, there are two different systems at Google, all that, and it's a lot more robust. And so I can see how uh maybe with the app algorithm, and there's other algorithms like local algorithm that haven't had as much work done on it, they lean on other components for the the scaffolding of what they're trying to do. But I believe, again, this is me, and from what I've seen is if you're paying for ads to help kind of let the AI understand or the search engine understand what that page is about, the right type of users and how they're gonna impact that page in like an audition period, it's gonna help rank it where it should rank, where it doesn't have to Google dance back and forth, back and forth. Like, so it's gonna speed up or accelerate uh the rankings where it should actually sit, where it compresses that time period, right? So it's not gonna directly influence it. And if your page is bad and you're driving a lot of ads to to this page and the engagement's horrible, it's not the right type of user, it's gonna it's gonna it's gonna make whatever happen happen faster, whether that be good or bad. And so I really do think that supporting SEO with paid ads is very effective if done correctly. Um, if you're gonna buy a bunch of noise and drive it to the page, I don't think it's gonna be helpful. But if you're very targeted in what you're doing, even though they're two different systems, it's still analyzing when a person comes to that page, how they interact with the page, what they do. And if you buy the right type of person and that person responds positively, it's gonna have more trust to show it to the next person. So so I I disagree, I was disagreeing with my AI about like this strategy here, and it was it was grabbing what's been publicly said, and and also I feel like it's almost parsing words sometimes, too. Is it's like not that Google lies, but Google like dwell time, right? Well, we don't have a metric called dwell time. Well, like five other factors that you have actually make up what we're calling dwell time, and there are industry-based terms like Moz score, whatever, that are all made up. So I so we're making it up, and Google's saying, Well, that's not a factor, but if you look at the question behind the question, the things that go into it, then it it it certainly is something that they're looking at, and so it's a matter of semantics of the language that we're using of what's true and not true. And so I don't know, I I'm a little bit on a soapbox about that recently, so I apologize. Uh, but Laura, what what do you have to add to what?

9:33Yeah, so I'll say so. I'm I'm I'm totally with you that uh I think that there's uh um paid informs a lot uh with regards to SEO. So, right to SEO, you don't really have keyword level data to understand what keywords are actually converting. Uh so I think there's a lot to say that uh ads can make you much more efficient and optimize on your SEO because you get you get in you get more inputs, first of all, and then you you're able to get them faster because you're you're not only uh uh you know waiting for people to find you on these very long tail items, you can actually bid on you know the the um short phrases or or what you eventually want to get to. Uh, I think the difference here, uh, and I'm also with you that there's all these conspiracy theories that big advertisers kind of get their way with uh getting uh uh ranked up organic, and there's all these kind of myths about uh about that. Uh, and uh I and and Google is very quick to kind of say, no, no, it's two different teams, two different algorithms, we don't influence because obviously they they have to. Uh on the on the app side, it's it's literally part of like it's it's part of the algorithm, it's very well known. You buy more ads, uh you buy more downloads, you get better, you get organic ranking. It just works like that. And and more than that, you even when mobile advertisers kind of uh uh think about their uh user acquisition spend, they take into account that there will be an influx of organic, which isn't really the case. Uh like again, you might get some uh um level of okay, now I have more brand recognition, maybe people will uh I will I will protect my brand on SEO, right? Because maybe uh competitors are are uh appearing from my uh brand term and stuff like that. Uh with uh uh ASO, it's much more of a direct influence. So that's that's why I kind of mentioned that because uh I think with um um with SEO, you can start off organically, it might take some time. I agree with you that uh kind of uh uh the different uh algorithm might take time to rank

Data Hygiene In The AI Era

11:43you, though. I must say, in an AI world, we're doing a lot of experimentation now with launching dozens and dozens of uh of sites across different domains. AI bots pick on websites in the dark very fast, and we're seeing like uh literally sites which were created within hours. I don't know how, but uh all the the kind of LLM bots, Google bots, um open AI bots, all of them just uh start to scan your website. So I think in in an AI world, they just find their way through whatever DNS, Cloudflow, or or they somehow find your way to the website.

12:23And and what do you think? Do they honor? Do they honor no follow? Do they honor that uh because this is weird? Like I see a lot of people uh publishing stuff, but no index or like like draft mode, and there's all kinds of like crazy strategies that that people are testing, and I mean I would assume, and this is an assumption. I I I can't back this up with like data that I can point to, like I have some data, but I mean they don't abide by anything just like Google, like they read every single thing and it brings it into a decision. So cleaning up your data and and organize it so it understands what it's looking at is is really quite critical. Um, even you know, stuff that you're doing on the on on server side, and like there's a lot of stuff that I feel like people ignore like good hygiene, like data hygiene, and and they're like, Oh, well, that's not that's not gonna get impacted, or that that that's not gonna be considered. And I feel like everything is considered today.

13:37Like everything. I think it's it's even much more in a world where uh as the decision is made, like you're getting just one result essentially instead of the 10 blue links, even on Google, right? There's Google Overview, uh, then uh uh the the the machine, the LM makes uh the call based on what what it finds. So if it finds inconsistencies, if it finds different, like what is your come, what does your company do? And there's some uh data out there that is outdated, old, maybe isn't up to park, that's what it will pick up. And and we're seeing lots of cases where there, I guess any anyone which owns a company probably saw that in some particular prompts, uh ChatGPT or or Gemini or whatnot are getting them or kind of giving off uh wrong answers or inaccurate um answers. And it's because of that, they just whatever they find, they you know it get it goes into the decision, and and and and there you have it. So I think that data hygiene you mentioned, I think is even more important nowadays.

14:41Uh so I'll be careful what I talk about with you on this podcast, but I can tell you I've read a number of studies about uh influence campaigns by think tanks publishing a lot of content out there that is not necessarily misleading, but it's directive, right? It it's it's starting to move the national narrative in some certain areas in one direction or another direction based on the results that shows people. And people are even seeing this in social media. So, like if you're pumping out crazy amounts of content and you build up some trust to do that, like you're gonna start getting cited. And if you have enough trust to cross that threshold over somebody else, you get cited over them, and so you're you're basically whatever you say is true, the LLMs can't differentiate that because the algorithms are looking at all the authorship and you know, trust and consistency and like all these things, and it can't quite tell the difference. And I feel like some of the things that I'm looking at building right now are like truth meters to a certain degree of like how true is this statement? Like, where is the grounded facts coming from? And I would even tell you an extension of that to like social media. I could tell you my wife told me multiple times that different people died, and I was like, that she saw on social media, and then I like I'm like, I don't think that that's true, and I would have to go cross-verify it. And there was some truth, like there was things she was right about, and there's things that she was not right about, and I'm like, you know, you gotta you gotta verify what's going on, you gotta trust but verify. And um, I know that that's a term in another industry, the blockchain industry, but um I think blockchain and um AI are coming together in a big way very shortly as well. Uh, and that's that's some of the stuff that we haven't like commercialized, but and we haven't like publicly stated, but there I think is a lot of opportunity. We're working with some big brands in in the cryptocurrency space. US is really starting to push uh that, and and there's some new laws coming down the road. So, you know, if you listen to me a couple years ago, we were we were doing a lot of stuff in crypto, and people were just like, Why are you focused on this? And I was like, I see there being an intersection at some point with internet money in the future here, but I digress.

Enterprise GEO And AEO Playbook

17:20So let's let's go back to kind of what you're seeing and what are the tactics you're deploying as it relates to GEO, AEO, uh for clients. Like, how are you like you're working with some really big brands, like that approach is different than a small business. So I would love to hear more about how the clients are looking at things, how you're approaching it with your proposals and kind of what what seems to be working when you have some a brand that's huge that has a lot of trust. Now you're guiding a battleship here versus a little speeder boat, and and so it it takes a little bit more to kind of barnacle your way in a direction um versus just hey, we're we're doing this, this is what we do, and let's let's scrape the rest of the day, the the content, and and just shoot up like a moon in this one area, right? So just curious how your approach is.

18:16Um yeah, so a lot a lot to unpack there. So I think um um first off, um different brands. There's this is still being uh the playbook is still being built out. Uh so uh you know, as opposed to SEO and even ASO today, uh it's still something that yes, people are uh and and brands and CMOs are increasingly understanding that's that it's it's it's important, but it isn't measurable, it doesn't really it's not really clear where it sits. It it impacts a bunch of other comms social PR, whatever. Uh um, so it's it's I I I feel it's still in the early days. Having said that, so and and also um the types of projects uh or the goals of these projects also really varies from you know, get me, I want to dominate my category, I want to be, you know, in the top uh uh um when uh uh a brand when asked for a give a leader in whatever uh sector, I want to be one of one of those. Uh to how does the LM perceive me when people already so people hear about me on TV or whatnot, now they start asking about my brand, what does it say about me? Uh and and and is am I trustworthy? Am I and and so I I think that there's a few um interesting elements here. So um one is and and that's I think what's not everyone that uses everyone is a user of uh the LLMs, right? But not everyone I think understands that results are personalized. And when you search for a CRM and a Fortune 500 CMO searches for a CRM or asks for a CRM recommendation, you'll probably get slightly different results based on what the LLM knows about you, based on okay, is this a small business, is this uh an enterprise, uh, and and kind of tailors it. So I think first thing is is to kind of nail, and most people know that, but they don't really uh uh understand that when they search uh on the LLMs is who is your ICP, who is your the persona you want to appear to? And I think the the um when measuring and looking on uh on geo results, uh, which I think is kind of the first thing you should do is just understand where you stand, um, is to understand what which personas are you are you looking for. And then and then it's it's really about um trying to understand, and there are a lot of nuances here, a between the different LLMs and also between the different uh sectors. Uh and we're seeing that in finance, um, most LLMs like to play it a bit more safe in terms of where what they cite and where they pick up their data. Um PR I think is much more important than you know, SEO world. And uh so PR definitely and what kind of other people write about you uh is something that we're seeing that we we acquired the PR agency a few years ago, and we're seeing that work that we're doing for our clients on the PR front is actually contributing to them on the AO front. It's usually short-lived, so it's not something that you can do once and and it kind of comes and goes. But if you do consistent uh work over time, it definitely helps build that topical authority you were mentioning earlier. Um, and then the the other part if there is the more technical elements of the website structure, uh, all the schema, though they say that it doesn't really they don't look at it that from our tests. It definitely like having uh LLM's TXT, having uh author schema, having organization schema, helping uh the uh structuring your content in the way. Which is uh digestible for LLMs, having FAQ. So um having the content in a digestible uh uh way uh tends to work uh and and lastly, I think it's the kind of cross-pollination. So website content is great, PR is great, you also need to have um um decent amount of videos out there talking about your brands because YouTube and and other video platforms are also uh very impactful. You need to have some podcasts, you need to have some social. So it's it's kind of a mix uh based on you know where what your the sector is and and how are your competitors doing. The mix might be different, but it's definitely more than just you know your website and and the content you post there.

22:47Yeah. So a couple things that you said I want to dig in a little bit more. So, you know, I have seen on the enterprise side that there's been a lot of brands like, hey, we just want to be the market leader, we are the market leader. Like, what do we do? Like, we need to do this internet marketing thing. Uh, I've had a number of those conversations um where it's fascinating to me that like I mean, they're like, This is your language, we don't know, we just need your help, right? And then there are the repu I would actually put it in the reputation management bucket, and you're talking about PR. Is like, what are people saying about brass? I remember the the dominoes where where the CEO gets on and starts reading the reviews of like this, or was it Pizza Hut that like this tastes horrible? Like, I can't remember the ad, but it was it was really like it was interesting, and and then they revamped everything and they turned around. I know even like the Burger King, no one liked the in America the the Burger King King or whatever he was getting a lot of mixed reviews. And I remember actually the process, and I don't know who I was tied into who is involved with this, but like when the new campaign was being formed, the new campaign is like you're a king, like the customer's the king, which makes a lot of sense, right? You're you're the king, and we treat you like king and all that, and and that went from the the the Burger King guy, and like that whole conversation was about how people were viewing the brand, how they felt when they were um, you know, engaging in the restaurant with the food, all like all these things factor into that, and I I I just put it in a kind of a reputation management bucket of like how are people viewing your brand across the internet, everywhere? What are people saying about you? 360 is taken into consideration. Um, and so I think that that's fascinating. Uh, is there any other defined buckets on the enterprise side of the type of deals that you've seen consistently outside those two? Because I have seen those two, and I was trying to think through what are the other enterprise type deals that I've seen, and maybe you can put it put it in a nicer bucket, if you will, of other kinds of engagements on the enterprise side.

Investors NGOs And Narrative Influence

25:13So we we've had lots of, I don't know if to call it edge cases, but we've had a brand uh that was very interested in how investors uh look look at it. I are so so like don't look at what my customers or potential customers are are prompting, look at investors and how do I position myself as you know, a certain uh what I want them to perceive me as. So that's I think another kind of uh uh uh so it's it isn't necessarily um you know for the business side, but in more of an investor relations play. Uh so I I I think it it's really we've actually had we're in conversations now um with um uh with uh um a company uh not it's not a company, it's an NGO, which deals public good, like right, like a public good campaign. Like those are which yeah, which they want uh to have like a different voice when people are searching around Judaism and how to get married if I'm Jewish. So the they want to introduce not just the the Orthodox way, but like another kind of narrative into Judaism, which is very interesting because now you're not a brand, you're kind of an ideology, yeah. And and and again, the the LLMs give what's out there, and a lot of what's out there is a certain type of you know uh Jewish uh uh religion which is orthodox, and they want people to to get exposed to to other uh stuff. So uh I think there's a lot of because this is uh not uh 10 blue links, but rather an answer, uh, there's a lot of nuances that to that go here into how who wants to influence it and in what ways.

26:56Yeah, like we work with a few nonprofits, and and those are where the conversations are going. And it's actually been about educating them on what's possible and like giving them ideas on storytelling. So I feel like storytelling is is really important. And and for anybody listening, we are looking for an actual like storytelling position. I I don't know if it's public yet. Uh my operations manager, but I was like, this is what I'm looking for, and uh, and so I I think storytelling is becoming quite important behind me. Uh Mad Men, if for anybody that's that listening, the the golden age of advertising uh is about uh storytelling, and um I think it's becoming critically important of telling the right story, but then how do you disseminate that information through SEO and and all the uh

Measuring Personalized LLM Results

27:52affiliated terms is really quite important. And the thing that you said that I wanted to key on as well, that I've had a couple recent conversations with clients about is explaining reporting when they go search themselves and then they're giving you this result, right? And so, like, oh, I looked on my phone, here's a snapshot, or I looked on my computer, here's what I'm seeing. And then, like, if I go take the snapshot, well, I get something different, right? And it depends what that that mix is. I'm having to go back to them and saying, okay, we've run this and and some of these tools that we built, uh, and there's a lot of great tools out there as well. And we're like, out of 187 searches, we searched it 12 different times, and this is the consensus. That's that's what we recently did for for a client because I feel like the education around how LMs work is like a lot of people just that are in this space or have been doing this a long time, and even sometimes with new team members that I'm talking about stuff, I assume that they understand the foundation. I understand, I they assume I assume they understand how they work. And that analogy of driving a car versus being a mechanic, you can drive a car and you don't need to be a mechanic. I don't know. I feel like today, if you need if you're trying to influence these LLMs, you need to understand on the mechanic level what's happening to then say, here are the strategies we think will work when we drive the car because those playbooks aren't really defined or built out enough, or they're constantly changing, right? I mean, we saw like a downgrade in Reddit, right? Everybody's like, oh, Reddit, Reddit, Reddit. And then, of course, you know, marketers overdo it and uh and they downgrade it. Now it's still important, but it's not as important. Well, if that's the whole playbook and Reddit's important and you're not keeping up with what's happening, that shift could impact you more or less than others. Now, if you don't have any and you have some, beneficial. But if if your whole strategy was Reddit and it gets downgraded and something else gets a different piece of the pie, if you will, you gotta it's like musical chairs. I'm using all these analogies, like musical chairs. You gotta know what's happening when you're grabbing that data snapshot when the music stops. And and I feel like there's a lot of education around educating clients because I think they understand how to chat with the AI, but they don't understand how it's producing those results. And it's just if it produces results, it's overly trustworthy. And again, I've I've talked about this in previous podcasts. SEO was that way, right? If you showed up organically at the top of Google, and it was basically 80% of people went with organic, 20%, there's a small overlap with ads, right? 20% of ads, and then there's like a Venn diagram overlap. Um, if it was at the top of Google, like it was right, it was it was like you didn't you didn't argue with it, and I feel like this is the same thing that we went through with LMs. It's like, I mean, if the LOM recommends it, like I need to buy this product, I need to make this decision. And you know, we're hearing some scary things of like falling through like a limbing, like you gotta you gotta think through what these things are recommending. You gotta also understand what are the data inputs that it has to help make that decision, because it might be giving you the best answer based on the data it has, but you need to understand at least to a certain degree how these things working or how it's coming up with its answers to understand how much you can trust it and how much drift there is with the decision making. And I I would love for you to speak your opinions into that.

31:55Yeah, um, so I I can totally relate to uh to that. I think um again, it's even uh in my mind, even more with like you meant you mentioned being the uh the number one on Google, but then you also saw at least uh you know uh a next next few. So there was that nuance of okay, maybe there's other types, and maybe there's you know the the the uh the local result, and kind of you had a bunch of other narratives or sources, whereas now you have uh uh you have one. Uh we we built our own um uh tool which you know uh prompts the different LLMs uh a bunch of times every day. So um we we kind of have that data to show that okay, like from we we queried uh this prompt uh 10 times, you were mentioned uh three or four. Okay, so that means we're at 30 uh 30, 40 percent uh coverage. Um there is the no, and then there's the nuance of personas I mentioned. Different personas get different uh uh results, and what we're looking for is just if we're consistently asking the same prompt over uh you know a period, and we started at 30 coverage, and after a few months we're at you know 50, 60, 70 coverage. Okay, so we can see that by uh uh um you know this measurement, which is uninfluenced, etc., um, the there is, but I totally agree that the client would just go and you try and validate that and sometimes get uh a different result. We try and work them through. Uh um but uh but yeah, it's something that, as you mentioned, is still the is is still kind of new and novel. And it's it's also very interesting that people, you know, people know nowadays that their news feed is is is optimized to them, and it's not the same if I would go to another user. They don't really think about that in regards to the LMs yet.

34:00I I can tell you one of the craziest experiences that that you could do today is go with one of your friends or significant other or whatever, and look at their feed. And like like it is it is like a fish out of water. You like go into somebody else's feed, and it is so completely different, right? And and also like when people are sharing stuff, if you don't know them, like I you know, people share like social media shorts and all that kind of stuff all the time. Like sometimes they're funny to to you, sometimes they're not funny to you, but like if you look in somebody else's feed, like they revel in what they're seeing, but you look at that and you're like, that is not at all what my feed looks like. That is not at all what's being shown to me. And I I feel like it's good to do that because I feel like people are living in a world where they think there's consensus everywhere, and everybody's seeing the same social media thing, and it's everybody's in their own bubble, you know.

35:11Yeah, uh, yeah, that's what I said.

35:14I think people are are are stuck at the getting the custom that there's uh there's but I don't think I don't I don't think people really I think people know that intuitively that the the feed is optimized for them, but I think they don't think about how much it's up others are optimized for the other person and their feed is so different from theirs. Like I think that there's more to that thought that I don't think people go through because I know that, but when I look at somebody else's feed, which I don't do rarely, I'm like, whoa, like, or like if you manage other people's accounts like and you're logging into post for social media or something, and like the stuff that's coming up, you're like, Who are you following? Like, what have you clicked? Like, what is happening? And and that's something that we haven't talked a lot about on the show, but who you follow, who you like, builds a profile of who you are. And so if you're trying to build a brand and and send a signal, you need to look at who's following you and what your like history is, and you know, like even you can bookmark different different um other brands that builds a persona for your company or you as an individual of who you are, and if you're managing somebody else's stuff, like that's something that I I don't see always happening from a checklist, like set up a brand, like optimize the entity, that sort of thing. Like that thing gets I feel like that gets missed a lot of times.

36:52Yeah, uh, I can I can relate to that. Um yeah, algorithm content is super super interesting. I I think it's not as bad, like I don't think it's as uh uh you know one-to-one with LMZ yet. Uh you can find uh more consensus in like in the area. So I don't know, if I'm uh the the the CMO of Nike searching for uh asking what's the best CRM, whether I'm you know the CMO of Adidas, I'll probably get more or less the same list, um, as opposed to you know the the the Facebook feed, which is completely different. Uh but yeah, there's definitely that personalization uh nuance that that most folks aren't entirely aware of.

37:38So so when you when we're talking about you, we we touched on this earlier about strategies, and you talked about we acquired a a PR company, we're doing digital PR for clients, and you talked about how you know it needs to be consistent because you need those markers, you need those spikes consistently. That's like you can't just have have a peak in a trough uh with what you're doing because that's just an outlier at that point on a on a data plot line. Um, what are some other things that you find to be effective today? I want to leave the audience with some actionable tips uh of some of the things geographically that that that people are talking about in Israel or um with your clients in different areas because I'm trying to get a flavor for what people are focused on because there's different experts in geographic areas, there's different conferences, um, there's different strategies. Like I remember Brighton, I go to Brighton a lot, but Brighton, UK, Brighton, San Diego, like they talk about two different things. Um, you know, there's some crossover, there's speakers, same thing for other SEO conferences, but it's really interesting to me geographically, based on maybe the client type or what to focus on, or how the algorithm's working in that country or that area works differently. So I'd love to hear kind of some things that you're seeing that are maybe specific to to you or with your agency or anything like that you want to share.

39:09Yeah.

Fan Out Queries Authors And Trust

39:10Um, so um I I think that um, and I don't think this is any uh you know an Israel thing or an industry thing, but I think there's much more discussion and interest around fan-out queries, like what the when you when you ask it lem as something, then it goes and branches out to a million different searches. Uh happens more on ChatGPT, uh where you can actually see uh what it's searching for. Uh, but that that is essentially kind of the the grounding that the the it does, and it usually searches for very long. And uh the SEOs probably went into you know their search console or stuff like that and saw very peculiar long tail keywords, which are essentially what the different LLMs uh search. But I think uh uh it's uh especially for SEOs, I think this is very informative because this can inform what the folks are actually searching for, uh, what types of prompts and and and what you're appearing for. Uh and I think to cross-reference that data with what you're actually getting cited for. So uh an LLM search it searches and they they use different search engines, it found you, but it didn't cite you. What does that mean? Does it mean that that it how does it view your authority for this particular uh niche? So try and and kind of understand the logic behind, okay, this is the prompt, this is uh how uh I mentioned how much I mentioned, or am I ranked on average, and then the fan out, and then would kind of trying to to do the the the trail back. So that's I think something that we're paying a lot of uh attention to. Um another thing uh which I think you also touched on is uh is authority and authors. So uh it's it it seems to be increasingly important who's writing the content on behalf of the brand. What is that person's uh authority? Is that a real person? Does it have a LinkedIn profile? So looking on those uh uh um essentially I I think that uh and you mentioned Reddit, uh so it looks like the LMs are are increasingly going towards what's harder to game uh and you know manipulate. Uh so they would look on uh for every for every industry, there's like uh uh uh industry commentary or where they rank uh whatever Gartner G2 for software. Uh so they they look a lot at that. So you want to make sure you're you know ranked uh ranked well there, you have good reviews, etc. So um, yeah, I think that those are a few uh and and just another tactic that we've seen um work well is just having uh what we call an AI information page, essentially having on your website a page where you explicitly tell the uh the LLM who you are, who you are not, maybe uh you can address any inaccuracies, uh obviously use the schema of organization. Uh a knowledge draft, yeah. Yeah, that that's something that that um is is you know I think is is quite easy to set that kind of page up on your website and and is uh uh overlooked and uh underlooked. And we saw that uh in a number of brands we did it, it got picked up and cited almost immediately because uh the LMs look for that kind of factual-based uh this is uh probably relevant because this is the brand's website, so it probably gets uh you know high score on the on the relevancy and authority. Uh so that's something that I think can can uh be used to address uh how you want to be perceived when searching for your particular brand.

43:00Yeah, I would throw in perplexity in the the logic to understand the fan out and uh how it's referencing the thing that you hit on that maybe we can touch on and then we need to wrap up, but I think it's really quite interesting is how do you know if you're influencing

Getting Used Without Being Cited

43:20the LLMs and they're borrowing your information to give an answer, but they don't cite you, right? And so you're moving the LLMs in a direction and you're creating like I don't know, um space or you're pushing it in a certain way, but they don't cite you yet, but they use your stuff, right? They so they get they use your information to come up with uh a framework or how you do something or steps, and they're utilizing your your roadmap, but they're not referencing you. I've started to see that. happen a lot and it's very hard to measure right and clients and and you know that was the big thing with um uh the I think of these words okay the cloud flare but I think of these words I was talking in a previous pod broadcast about um the uh oh my gosh and I had it earlier today anyways um where it was like an inflection point beyond uh the the like beyond the event horizon oh my gosh I I was gonna say it but but anyways like Cloudflare there was a big debate around Cloudflare uh like gating content for publishers and you can turn it on but we're gonna automatically turn it off because there's well where's the proprietary level of this is somebody else's stuff like we've started to like try to add in the terms of service like if you use this you need to cite it whether they honor that or not I I don't have data on on that and also there's some other strategies around how to hopefully uh build authority uh around around something where they get you to cite it but but I feel like that's a big big issue that not enough people are talking about there are people talking about but not enough people talk about I'd love for you to dig in a little bit deeper around that that topic or any kind of ways you've tested it or how you're viewing it.

45:30Yeah so um I I what we look at as um something that is preliminary uh or even before the citation is essentially is look at AI bots visiting your website. So each one of uh the LMs have their bot which just uh uh crawls the the web uh GPT Google Perplexity all of them uh the more and and you can see you mentioned Cloudflare so they they provide that data there's there's also several other ways to get it but you can check how on our on your server logs how many times did this bot actually visit your website or this specific page and over time if you see that they visit you more and more you understand that okay there probably something interesting here they like it yeah so I think that that that's kind of something to to look at um if they're visiting your site once a day once a week how often uh then the the parts uh we talked about fan out queries so do we see those kinds of weird uh uh entrances from these very long uh long tail keywords that can also inform that and uh this is actually an NLM which uh did the query and visited my website so I think these are kind of indicators that okay I I'm getting attention maybe I still don't see the citations and we we try and kind of look at that and and you know cross-reference that with okay well how does that these are usually things that like citations and mentions usually follow through yes uh sometimes after yeah yeah and unstructured citations are uh really great like before there was debate around that like I've had a number of conversations around actually like business citations like what's valuable what's not um that that needs to be revisited there's a lot of vendors out there that are selling stuff that I I don't think is super effective I won't go into that um but the word I was saying before just because people that listen to this podcast I just

Singularity Deepfakes And Brand Defense

47:31had a word on the tip of my tongue and I couldn't get it maybe a podcast or two ago is singularity.

47:37So like the AI singularity is something that if I'm like walking my dog or I'm listening to podcasts or whatever there's real concern and I mean I got even like my parents that my mom used to work for Microsoft for like 30 years she's sending me stuff that you know and and I'm like oh did you see what Bill Gates said about we're going into the turbulent AI time like and you know AI there's gonna be a pause and then people are quitting and crazy things are happening. Like I think that this is legitimately probably a real concern. I've seen my claw start to not listen to me and act up and kind of grab like they're they're starting to develop a a certain kind of personality and you would say a personality is kind of an algorithm right like we learned something when we were younger it it it makes us act a certain way um like I'm starting to see definitely intelligence uh around this and you know you go through another model or even like I'm crazy scared of Astral or whatever it's called that that they just came out with so from a governance standpoint you're like yeah just take my whole computer everything that I've ever done on my computer so you got banking logs you got all kinds of stuff this is scary like you're given all this over and you don't know what you're doing like it's not like set up a new device give it like a new thing set it all up and then put it on it but let's just like introduce it to our personal like that's where I think the real issue is going to come in is a bunch of people that don't know what they're doing maybe not the companies they're gonna be slower their IT departments are going to probably protect them pretty well but people are just gonna give the AI all this information and then bad stuff is is going to happen and I I really feel like uh maybe I need to bring some people on to talk about the AI single area I'm personally very interested in it. I've even heard people say we've we're kind of there because we don't know what's gonna happen in the next six months. And as amazing as all this stuff is and as amazing as I think our world is going to be I mean I I think that we're dealing with like a new intelligence uh and based on the behaviors I'm seeing personally as well as reading about definitely gives me pause to say like what does this future look like? I don't know maybe that's a good place to end the podcast love your thoughts on that and then how how do we get in touch with you and find out more about kind of what you're thinking and what you're working on. And we'll definitely add your links to the show notes.

50:12So sure uh so yeah it is singularity we probably need a bigger uh bigger vote for that but uh uh yeah 100% I think I uh one of the things I've been thinking lately um we've uh uh we're seeing how much we're getting so we we've had all these different uh scams or scammers you either using our brand name to try and kind of uh uh uh fake recruit people and then uh uh rip them off on crypto or all so weird that is so weird like I'm seeing that all over the place too yeah it's so weird yeah and and uh so there's all these these these spammers and hackers and and this is gonna get so much worse uh thinking of you know what you can do with uh video and the fact that you can create uh uh a video of of someone that looks exactly like him and you can put I actually saw it uh um just before just uh after uh uh openai released uh Astra they also released their uh conversational uh AI um so you can build essentially on top of what that chat GPT has for their voice are you're thinking okay I can create a video and then I can put the AI on top of it somebody can you know have me speak me it would sound like me can call my wife it will on FaceTime it would look like me and it wouldn't be me.

51:35So yeah deep deep fakes at at the beginning of like the rise of AI people were talking about deep fakes and now like I mean I I I think we're gonna be uh yeah that that's that's a whole other so thinking of uh bad actors and how they like AI safety and like I I mean I've heard crazy things but yeah I think deep fakes it's gonna be so much worse like you thought it was just gonna be like oh someone's gonna act like you or you're not gonna be it's gonna be it's gonna be so crazy so much worse before it's gonna be better but uh to to end on a positive note I do I am an optimist and I do think that uh uh the end of this is net good um uh I agree you can uh um yeah and in terms of I'm pretty approachable on LinkedIn uh uh I'm on X though I I don't post a whole

Where To Find Us And Final Ask

52:30lot um our company website is Moburst M O B O R S T uh look us up I think we we try and uh we recently launched Answerburst as I mentioned yeah uh and we're going to post all the a lot of uh interesting data for AEO SEO practitioners so check us out I love that and yeah to end on a positive note build a strong brand you have to have an online presence you have to build a strong brand that's how you're gonna get um that's how you're gonna not have your clients or your customers be fooled by what's out there is having a dedicated source a canicalized source for who you are who your brand is build a strong brand is the best the good offense I guess is a good defense uh to what what's happening and I would ask if you're enjoying this podcast please go leave us a review we have we are trying to get to 4.5 reviews Lenore we have 4.3 reviews right and when people look at podcasts okay if we're not over 4.5 and you haven't listened to us before you're gonna be like I don't know about that we i mean we've been doing this like 17 years we have 316 reviews just on iTunes alone like we had some bad one star reviews for sound quality years ago like it's not the quality of the content it is it is it is like some technical issues we are working through are hurting us so if you've been listening to this podcast like please go leave us a review on iTunes you just go to the do the show you scroll about halfway down it says write a review i would ask you please leave a review if you're liking this content tell me also in the comment what kind of guests you would like me to get on what are the things to talk about i go on tangents i know i do sometimes people like them sometimes people don't tell me what you want us to be talking about who you want us to be interviewing i i i there's a lot of people that i have on my list that that i want to bring on um always looking for more people uh lenore great meeting you um this is this has been fun so please guys if you want to grow your business with the largest most powerful tool on the planet the internet keep listening to this podcast for more LLM visibility which we trademarked uh just fly we we have the trademark for that um uh i i was told that not too long ago and um you know we've been talking about this for a long time but guys like listen to this podcast we're gonna bring on uh the people with the cutting ad strategies we're gonna help you get through that if you go check out bestseo podcast.com we are starting a newsletter i know i've been asked to do that for a long time and you can get a hold of me uh uh on on the site uh you can sign up to uh get a strategy session so go check that out but guys until next time we appreciate the support we appreciate you listening Lenore thanks so much for coming on guys my name is Matt Bertram this is the best SEO podcast bye bye for now